Many neuro-divergent people (my experience is mostly w/ADD/ADHD, some ASD) appear to have no circadian rhythm to speak of. I wonder if that's similar to non-24? There are all sorts of negative consequences; the torture of insomnia, chronic sleep deprivation because insomnia + getting up at a reasonable time to be at work/school, social isolation because going to bed very late and getting up very late, or short on sleep during the week so crashing and sleeping through much of the weekend, general feeling of being out of control, and all the consequences of struggling to maintain routines, such as becoming unfit, eating poorly, losing jobs and relationships ...
Using a therapeutic lamp EVERY SINGLE DAY (not just mid-September through mid-April as usual for seasonal mood/energy changes) seems to be helpful for a lot of people with this issue. I encourage my patients (I'm a psychologist) to use it close up (recommended distance) for a half hour or 45 min, in the morning. For those who work at a desk, they can then just back it up and keep it on until lunch time. Some people even have it on a timer so it starts glaring down at them 20 min before their alarm goes off; makes waking up easier, but also makes falling asleep at a more reasonable/regular time easier. (You need a lamp that's not tiny for this, the very small ones have to be very close to your face.)
For people who currently have a vampire-like schedule, the easiest is actually to just stay up; don't sleep at all, use the lamp in the morning, sleep at night. If that nighttime sleep is still too late, get up as early as you can, use the lamp for an hour right away, try moving sleep gradually earlier.
Other interventions can help too, such as a weighted blanket, if the person can tolerate that (seems to work because increases melatonin production). And melatonin supplements, either as needed (such as to get back on track) or frankly every damned night of one's life. For many just a very small dose sub-lingual at bedtime helps, If not, then a small dose 4 to 5 hs before bedtime and another at bedtime can be useful.
I've used a lamp before, but it didn't help that much. I got headaches from it, which just going out in the sun doesn't seem to do. So I stopped using it. I had the big one with 3 (?) bulbs that most doctors seem to recommend.
Melatonin just seemed to knock me out, even when I cut the pills into thirds. I think the OTC doses are just wayyy to high.
The weighted blankets I haven't tried, it's an interesting thing why those would work. Babies seem to like being wrapped in tight blankets too, I think that's a pretty common practice in some cultures to "bundle up" your baby when carrying. Maybe it simulates being cradled or cuddled by the mother, or another person? I can't imagine we evolved and adapted to heavy blankets per se in the stone age :D What would we have used as blankets, pelts? I guess they're kinda heavy?
A lot of people have to start with a therapeutic lamp dimmed, or further away; they are VERY bright! Then gradual increase/closer, over weeks or even a couple of months. They should also always be a bit off to the side, so they're not shining right in your face. Recent therapeutic lamps are LED, so much lighter, cheaper, and can be smaller; each one has the 'recommended distance' of use in the instructions.
Melatonin doses are WAY too high, and in most supplements, highly inconsistent as well. Most people aren't affected by the 'extra', but it sounds like you're sensitive to it. I often tell people to buy an expensive one, smallest dose available, then cut those little things into halves or even smaller.
Weirdly, weighted blankets appear to ... increase melatonin production. Now, WHY and how they would do that ....? Someone is probably working away in a lab right now trying to figure out that.
It's great you've found a solution to the wonky circadian rhythm, though. It can bring so much chaos with it.
Reading this I can see it's the 24 hour circadian rhythm thing that forced you to keep going. That's a tougher symptom to handle than obesity in some ways and it's forced you to experiment.
I'm not so different - I'm on keto now even though I'm probably lighter than I'd like to be, just because it is helping with another health problem I have. Of course I got on keto to lose weight at first, and it worked for me, I dropped over 10kg without any drama, having never previously been able to lose more than a few kilos on regular diets.
I bet there's loads of people out there persisting with weird diets for health reasons that know more about dieting than the weight loss people do!
Now, I'm a rabid over-eater when I'm on carbs and since I've been roughly the same weight my whole life, a big follower of smtm's work (even though I am dubious of the lithium hypothesis) I am very interested in hearing about hings that work to create satiety and might go buy some cream right now!
Yea, for some things the individual variation and difficulty in testing just makes it impractical for "real scientists" to find much. How are you going to test Non24? It's hard to diagnose to begin with, and then are you putting 10 people into a sleep lab for half a year? Who will even agree to that and who will pay? Whereas a motivated individual who has the issue might try things continuously throughout his lifetime.
Do you mind expanding on your other health problem that keto fixes? Interesting how so many people are seeing random conditions go away on keto haha.
Congratulations on being item 32, here: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/links-for-april-2023
Oh, nice! Thanks for letting me know :)
Many neuro-divergent people (my experience is mostly w/ADD/ADHD, some ASD) appear to have no circadian rhythm to speak of. I wonder if that's similar to non-24? There are all sorts of negative consequences; the torture of insomnia, chronic sleep deprivation because insomnia + getting up at a reasonable time to be at work/school, social isolation because going to bed very late and getting up very late, or short on sleep during the week so crashing and sleeping through much of the weekend, general feeling of being out of control, and all the consequences of struggling to maintain routines, such as becoming unfit, eating poorly, losing jobs and relationships ...
Using a therapeutic lamp EVERY SINGLE DAY (not just mid-September through mid-April as usual for seasonal mood/energy changes) seems to be helpful for a lot of people with this issue. I encourage my patients (I'm a psychologist) to use it close up (recommended distance) for a half hour or 45 min, in the morning. For those who work at a desk, they can then just back it up and keep it on until lunch time. Some people even have it on a timer so it starts glaring down at them 20 min before their alarm goes off; makes waking up easier, but also makes falling asleep at a more reasonable/regular time easier. (You need a lamp that's not tiny for this, the very small ones have to be very close to your face.)
For people who currently have a vampire-like schedule, the easiest is actually to just stay up; don't sleep at all, use the lamp in the morning, sleep at night. If that nighttime sleep is still too late, get up as early as you can, use the lamp for an hour right away, try moving sleep gradually earlier.
Other interventions can help too, such as a weighted blanket, if the person can tolerate that (seems to work because increases melatonin production). And melatonin supplements, either as needed (such as to get back on track) or frankly every damned night of one's life. For many just a very small dose sub-lingual at bedtime helps, If not, then a small dose 4 to 5 hs before bedtime and another at bedtime can be useful.
I've used a lamp before, but it didn't help that much. I got headaches from it, which just going out in the sun doesn't seem to do. So I stopped using it. I had the big one with 3 (?) bulbs that most doctors seem to recommend.
Melatonin just seemed to knock me out, even when I cut the pills into thirds. I think the OTC doses are just wayyy to high.
The weighted blankets I haven't tried, it's an interesting thing why those would work. Babies seem to like being wrapped in tight blankets too, I think that's a pretty common practice in some cultures to "bundle up" your baby when carrying. Maybe it simulates being cradled or cuddled by the mother, or another person? I can't imagine we evolved and adapted to heavy blankets per se in the stone age :D What would we have used as blankets, pelts? I guess they're kinda heavy?
A lot of people have to start with a therapeutic lamp dimmed, or further away; they are VERY bright! Then gradual increase/closer, over weeks or even a couple of months. They should also always be a bit off to the side, so they're not shining right in your face. Recent therapeutic lamps are LED, so much lighter, cheaper, and can be smaller; each one has the 'recommended distance' of use in the instructions.
Melatonin doses are WAY too high, and in most supplements, highly inconsistent as well. Most people aren't affected by the 'extra', but it sounds like you're sensitive to it. I often tell people to buy an expensive one, smallest dose available, then cut those little things into halves or even smaller.
Weirdly, weighted blankets appear to ... increase melatonin production. Now, WHY and how they would do that ....? Someone is probably working away in a lab right now trying to figure out that.
It's great you've found a solution to the wonky circadian rhythm, though. It can bring so much chaos with it.
Yea, I got lucky. I definitely had all the symptoms you describe above.
Reading this I can see it's the 24 hour circadian rhythm thing that forced you to keep going. That's a tougher symptom to handle than obesity in some ways and it's forced you to experiment.
I'm not so different - I'm on keto now even though I'm probably lighter than I'd like to be, just because it is helping with another health problem I have. Of course I got on keto to lose weight at first, and it worked for me, I dropped over 10kg without any drama, having never previously been able to lose more than a few kilos on regular diets.
I bet there's loads of people out there persisting with weird diets for health reasons that know more about dieting than the weight loss people do!
Now, I'm a rabid over-eater when I'm on carbs and since I've been roughly the same weight my whole life, a big follower of smtm's work (even though I am dubious of the lithium hypothesis) I am very interested in hearing about hings that work to create satiety and might go buy some cream right now!
Yea, for some things the individual variation and difficulty in testing just makes it impractical for "real scientists" to find much. How are you going to test Non24? It's hard to diagnose to begin with, and then are you putting 10 people into a sleep lab for half a year? Who will even agree to that and who will pay? Whereas a motivated individual who has the issue might try things continuously throughout his lifetime.
Do you mind expanding on your other health problem that keto fixes? Interesting how so many people are seeing random conditions go away on keto haha.