I skimmed through Broda Barnes's "Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness," and the diet that she suggests for weight loss is very close to yours. She, however, expresses the need to eat just enough carbohydrate to NOT go into ketosis. So, it's high fat, low carb (not low enough to enter ketosis), and moderate protein. With your desire for tomato sauce, I'm wondering if you actually are entering into ketosis but just sitting right outside of it. What do you think?
I've tested my blood ketones a lot, and I'm definitely in pretty deep ketosis. On ex150 like this month I'm usually in the 2.0-3.5mmol/L range, and on the fat fast I hit 6.4. I think anything above 0.5 is considered at least light ketosis.
Why does she recommend not quite getting into ketosis?
I didn't read into it, but I was once on keto and a little carnivore and IF and it put me in a chronic stress cascade which peaters discuss. I'm in the camp of ketosis not being a state that the body wants to be in (as noted by Inuits having a gene making them resistant to ketosis though they eat primarily fat and meat year-round), but I was able to lose weight for a while before my hormones started freaking out. So, I'm considering doing it again but in her way so that I make sure not to be in ketosis but just outside of it.
I generally don't agree with that hypothesis. It maybe a genetic predisposition, but I felt like "coming home" when I first started real keto, and it just feels much better and natural. I've been doing pretty intense keto for 8 years and none of the hormones Peaters/Masterjohn cite are off, in fact many are the opposite (high thyroid, high T, feeling bursts of energy instead of lethargy...)
So I don't know if it's a genetic thing and I'm just "wired" for keto whereas others can barely do it, or what else..
I will say Keto + IF makes it REALLY easy to starve yourself. I keep reminding people who try ex150 that they will feel much blunted appetite and to consciously overeat cream. So that could definitely be a factor in people for whom keto and especially IF puts them under stress.
The Inuit hypothesis I favor is that of Amber O'Hearn; since they live in such a cold climate, all the animals they eat are very high in PUFAs, which are liquid even at freezing temperatures. In order to avoid oxidizing as many of these damaging fatty acids, they developed a resistance to ketosis.
But I think we basically don't know enough to judge - until recently, the main hypothesis seemed to be that "the Inuit aren't in deep ketosis, therefore meat must contain 30% carbs" - which seems like total made-up nonsense to me. So it's not like we're dealing with a super consistent or well-established field, every study is still somewhat unique and they're often decades apart and use entirely different metrics and techniques.
This is true. It's possible that I never ate enough on Carnivore or Keto as well as I just had extreme difficulty doing that. Whatever works for you works, and I always advise people to do what's best for themselves.
Yea it's really hard to tell. I do think that for most people keto/carnivore is not necessary. So if you don't do well on it, no reason to force it. Just go with something you feel better on, that's the best sign.
Just totally normal, drank water when I was thirsty. And lots of coffee with heavy cream. Should've mentioned that I guess, I've never tried dry fasting.
Interesting. You mean in the sense that the fluid/salt balance kind of changed? I hadn't thought of that, but it kind of makes sense: when I do low protein keto, I am way less thirsty, and when I gain weight eating too much protein, I'm constantly thirsty.
So going even lower protein on the fat fast might've decreased the need for fluid even more... hm!
Definitely an interesting point, although I'm not sure how to act on it. I suppose next time I fat fast I could be careful not to drink too much, or maybe get my salt in otherwise?
Your comment on “sour” interests me. I ferment onions and have been eating them on top of bone broth cooked rice. The meal is very satiating and satisfying with the bit of lactic acid. Better tan fish sauce or soy sauce
I definitely think a bit of sour/tanginess can add a ton of flavor and make something more delicious. It could be that certain foods thus become too palatable, at least for me. I don't feel like overeating from lemon sauces, for example, but the lemon is only a small piece and I usually didn't have those foods available ad-libitum.
I think it works extremely well for some people, but did not for me.
For one, I could barely do it - found it not very palatable, yes steak got boring within 5 days. I also think it has too much protein for me, and when I tried dialing up the beef fat, I got the runs. For me, digesting dairy (cream, butter) is MUCH easier. Traditional carnivore doesn't allow dairy besides maaaaaybe butter.
It's also typically extremely high in protein, unless you're eating mostly beef fat trimmings. Amber O'Hearn coined "Keto AF" (Keto Animal Fats) to promote this style of carnivore/keto eating, which has a lot more fat than the typical carnivore diet.
So if you're the type of guy who can deal with high protein, carnivore will probably be awesome. If, like me, you cannot, it'll suck.
One way to find out :) I'd just give it a try if you're interested, give it a solid 2-3 months. If you feel bad, don't enjoy the food, and don't lose weight, you can try something else.
I skimmed through Broda Barnes's "Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness," and the diet that she suggests for weight loss is very close to yours. She, however, expresses the need to eat just enough carbohydrate to NOT go into ketosis. So, it's high fat, low carb (not low enough to enter ketosis), and moderate protein. With your desire for tomato sauce, I'm wondering if you actually are entering into ketosis but just sitting right outside of it. What do you think?
I've tested my blood ketones a lot, and I'm definitely in pretty deep ketosis. On ex150 like this month I'm usually in the 2.0-3.5mmol/L range, and on the fat fast I hit 6.4. I think anything above 0.5 is considered at least light ketosis.
Why does she recommend not quite getting into ketosis?
I didn't read into it, but I was once on keto and a little carnivore and IF and it put me in a chronic stress cascade which peaters discuss. I'm in the camp of ketosis not being a state that the body wants to be in (as noted by Inuits having a gene making them resistant to ketosis though they eat primarily fat and meat year-round), but I was able to lose weight for a while before my hormones started freaking out. So, I'm considering doing it again but in her way so that I make sure not to be in ketosis but just outside of it.
Chris Masterjohn discusses it here, I'm not sure of all he says here, but he gives examples of why: https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/37-inuit-genetics-show-us-why-evolution
I generally don't agree with that hypothesis. It maybe a genetic predisposition, but I felt like "coming home" when I first started real keto, and it just feels much better and natural. I've been doing pretty intense keto for 8 years and none of the hormones Peaters/Masterjohn cite are off, in fact many are the opposite (high thyroid, high T, feeling bursts of energy instead of lethargy...)
So I don't know if it's a genetic thing and I'm just "wired" for keto whereas others can barely do it, or what else..
I will say Keto + IF makes it REALLY easy to starve yourself. I keep reminding people who try ex150 that they will feel much blunted appetite and to consciously overeat cream. So that could definitely be a factor in people for whom keto and especially IF puts them under stress.
The Inuit hypothesis I favor is that of Amber O'Hearn; since they live in such a cold climate, all the animals they eat are very high in PUFAs, which are liquid even at freezing temperatures. In order to avoid oxidizing as many of these damaging fatty acids, they developed a resistance to ketosis.
But I think we basically don't know enough to judge - until recently, the main hypothesis seemed to be that "the Inuit aren't in deep ketosis, therefore meat must contain 30% carbs" - which seems like total made-up nonsense to me. So it's not like we're dealing with a super consistent or well-established field, every study is still somewhat unique and they're often decades apart and use entirely different metrics and techniques.
This is true. It's possible that I never ate enough on Carnivore or Keto as well as I just had extreme difficulty doing that. Whatever works for you works, and I always advise people to do what's best for themselves.
Yea it's really hard to tell. I do think that for most people keto/carnivore is not necessary. So if you don't do well on it, no reason to force it. Just go with something you feel better on, that's the best sign.
What was your water consumption during your fat fast?
Just totally normal, drank water when I was thirsty. And lots of coffee with heavy cream. Should've mentioned that I guess, I've never tried dry fasting.
I was wondering if it could explain your cravings, especially for salty things.
Interesting. You mean in the sense that the fluid/salt balance kind of changed? I hadn't thought of that, but it kind of makes sense: when I do low protein keto, I am way less thirsty, and when I gain weight eating too much protein, I'm constantly thirsty.
So going even lower protein on the fat fast might've decreased the need for fluid even more... hm!
Definitely an interesting point, although I'm not sure how to act on it. I suppose next time I fat fast I could be careful not to drink too much, or maybe get my salt in otherwise?
Exactly, water could decrease your blood osmolarity which would induce a craving of salt.
Proteins is a good hypothesis too as I believe water is needed for protein metabolism excretion.
Reducing your water consumption could be helpful yes, or adding salt/electrolytes to the water you drink might help.
Maybe that's why some people find dry fasting better than water fasting. Thanks for the insight!
Your comment on “sour” interests me. I ferment onions and have been eating them on top of bone broth cooked rice. The meal is very satiating and satisfying with the bit of lactic acid. Better tan fish sauce or soy sauce
I definitely think a bit of sour/tanginess can add a ton of flavor and make something more delicious. It could be that certain foods thus become too palatable, at least for me. I don't feel like overeating from lemon sauces, for example, but the lemon is only a small piece and I usually didn't have those foods available ad-libitum.
Excellent! We may be confused about why, but I think we are still winning....
Do you have any thoughts on carnivore?
I ordered an X3 after reading your post about it and their personal trainers seem to recommend carnivore.
I think it works extremely well for some people, but did not for me.
For one, I could barely do it - found it not very palatable, yes steak got boring within 5 days. I also think it has too much protein for me, and when I tried dialing up the beef fat, I got the runs. For me, digesting dairy (cream, butter) is MUCH easier. Traditional carnivore doesn't allow dairy besides maaaaaybe butter.
It's also typically extremely high in protein, unless you're eating mostly beef fat trimmings. Amber O'Hearn coined "Keto AF" (Keto Animal Fats) to promote this style of carnivore/keto eating, which has a lot more fat than the typical carnivore diet.
So if you're the type of guy who can deal with high protein, carnivore will probably be awesome. If, like me, you cannot, it'll suck.
One way to find out :) I'd just give it a try if you're interested, give it a solid 2-3 months. If you feel bad, don't enjoy the food, and don't lose weight, you can try something else.
Cheers!
My normal keto is very meat based anyway so I think it would be a natural step.
Although bit hard to get this one past la famille tbh but might have a go.
Good luck :) Keep us updated