I'm most interested to see what happens next. Your graph looks like exponential decay to a set point just below where you are now. I'd be actively surprised if your second go causes another big drop, so if it does, call me on it and remind me that I've made a confident false prediction; and so must be wrong about something important (probably the whole lipostat idea).
This 'food anhedonia' that you describe sounds awfully like what I get if I overeat, or what I'm currently getting trying ex150ish+fruit. You're just not interested in eating at all.
I think that's 'lipostat realises you're carrying too much fat, and so stops motivating you to eat (at least as long as you're not short of protein or micronutrients, in which case you get very specific cravings).
My guess for what's going on is that dropping the sauce has reduced your protein intake, and that that's important for some reason. But it might be the vinegar, acetic acid bypasses beta-oxidation and glycolysis and gets fed straight into the Krebs Cycle, and that might be important too. Did you get similar results trying either separately, I can't remember?
You're probably sailing awfully close to protein deficiency now. If you get cheeseburger cravings, have a cheeseburger as soon as possible!
I got about half the results and also appetite reduction just from the ACV but with tomato sauce. I haven't tried tomato sauce without ACV.
I am also interested in what happens next! Is this just bouncing into the plateau again, or will it break through significantly? Spoiler: was 215.x the last 2 days. But that's still within noise range of 217; getting to say 212 or even sub 210 would be a clear signal.
Yes, 210 is roughly the threshold where that graph stops looking like exponential decay and I'll be surprised. If you get another vast drop like you did this time I'll be very surprised.
Good luck! Surprises are good. Being wrong is unavoidable; realising that you're wrong is how to be less wrong.
Yea, 80g of tomato sauce shouldn't have very much protein. 125ml are supposed to have 2g protein, and I would use less than that most days (target 80g, but sometimes I overshoot to maybe 100, so let's say 90 on average).
It's only a tiny bit, but you're only eating about the amount you need to avoid protein deficiency anyway, so if 'protein above deficiency level' is an important variable here, it *might* make a difference...
>If tomato sauce at lunch makes whipped cream at dinner more palatable, that’s some quantum entanglement stuff if I’ve ever seen it.
Weirdly for me when I eat lean protein (chicken breast, protein powder, etc) I feel some kind of urge to eat in waves all day. I have no idea what are the "timings" on the different "feedback loops", but I think it's possible to trigger hyperphagia from one meal to another.
I was waiting with bated breath to read your results on this; it's great that you're seeing such success even after the water weight drop.
I actually decided to try vinegar + low sodium + low umami + low protein as well after reading the polyol research from you and mct4health, and 10 lbs fell off in a single week despite being normal BMI (on the high end of it, but still). Obviously mainly water weight, but I'm also experiencing the low food cravings you describe, and the scale keeps ticking down steadily. This is great considering I've been hovering at this close-to-overweight number for like a year no matter what low-PUFA foods I ate.
I really want to believe "the signal is actually not caused by total salt intake, but by salt concentration in the blood" but I feel the addictive "hit" you describe as soon as salt hits my tongue and have an immediate urge to consume as much of the food as possible. Then again, I've been feeling general salt cravings too, and had some electrolyte-imbalance fatigue. Maybe there is a low-but-not-bottoming-out sodium sweet spot. Also, by this logic, I would assume that things like energy drinks, which are 99% water, would not trigger it at all... and yet.
It continues to blow my mind how so many "commonsense diet advice" things ARE right after all... just not the way people pretend they are. I've heard "Fermented food is associated with better health! Uh, because, fiber maybe?" which sounded stupid so I never tried until now. Spoiler: probably the acetic acid causing the health boosts. I've heard "Oh, too much salt is bad" for ages but all people could ever follow up with was "because high blood pressure I guess?" But we'd see these generalized associations with heart disease and general chronic ills if it triggered overeating and inappropriate fat storage.
What would you estimate your daily salt intake is in mg on this diet, compared to before?
Yea we certainly don't understand it all haha. Not even very much, I'd say. Great to hear you're having results, keep me updated!
150g ground beef seem to have about 100mg of sodium, and 500ml of heavy cream about 135mg. If you add in maybe 1-2 energy drinks of let's say another 80mg a day.. somewhere around 300-400mg sodium/day?
Which I'd consider to be a very reasonable value. At least that was the BMI I maintained without thinking about it for most of my adult life. Awesome work. Do you still look fat?
I'm in the process of working through possible treatments for a couple of mild defects in my fatty acid metabolism. One thing I'm noticing is that sometimes for full functioning I just need something closer to 4500 kCal/day than the 2500 to 3000 Oura usually recommends, and sometimes there's just no way to consume the right kCal without a sauce of some kind, such that I'm feeling fatigued, I've already eaten all the mashed potatoes and rice and bread I can stomach, I'm already replete on protein, but it feels like it would be good to eat a pizza.
Hi, long-term lurker here! I find this newsletter fascinating and I appreciate you sharing all your experiments with us!
I'm not overweight but I'm interested in the satiety/food noise reduction aspect of all this. I did a long keto trial (almost a year) a few years ago, and it was amazing for many things (My skin was glowing! I didn't get sore after exercise! Zero sunburnt!) but unfortunately, I did have a lot of cravings and I started experiencing bad cramps that wouldn't go away no matter how many electrolytes I'd add or in what proportions.
I was wondering if ketosis is crucial here, or if you could mimic some aspects of this diet while eating some targeted carbs to avoid the side effects some might have when in long-term ketosis.
I know swamping is bad, but maybe isolated carbs with zero fat? Maybe before/after exercise?
Apologies if it's a stupid question, and thanks again for all your work!
The idea is to get acetic acid; not sure if that's what you're allergic to or something else? I think Jaromir (https://mct4health.blogspot.com/) also mentions certain other short chain fatty acids besides acetic acid, maybe you do better on one of those? I forget which ones and how to get them in :(
The last few days I've made a concerted effort to not salt my food (e.g. tallow-roasted potatoes, ribeye, steamed broccoli) and have also noticed a decreased desire to eat later on.
And, yes, Rao's is absolutely crack. I don't eat it every day, but I don't plan to give it up anytime soon...
Congrats, very exciting for you. I'm curious does the ACV really matter or is it the lack of salt/unami that seems to done the plateau. have you done the no salt/taste without ACV yet?
I'm most interested to see what happens next. Your graph looks like exponential decay to a set point just below where you are now. I'd be actively surprised if your second go causes another big drop, so if it does, call me on it and remind me that I've made a confident false prediction; and so must be wrong about something important (probably the whole lipostat idea).
This 'food anhedonia' that you describe sounds awfully like what I get if I overeat, or what I'm currently getting trying ex150ish+fruit. You're just not interested in eating at all.
I think that's 'lipostat realises you're carrying too much fat, and so stops motivating you to eat (at least as long as you're not short of protein or micronutrients, in which case you get very specific cravings).
My guess for what's going on is that dropping the sauce has reduced your protein intake, and that that's important for some reason. But it might be the vinegar, acetic acid bypasses beta-oxidation and glycolysis and gets fed straight into the Krebs Cycle, and that might be important too. Did you get similar results trying either separately, I can't remember?
You're probably sailing awfully close to protein deficiency now. If you get cheeseburger cravings, have a cheeseburger as soon as possible!
I got about half the results and also appetite reduction just from the ACV but with tomato sauce. I haven't tried tomato sauce without ACV.
I am also interested in what happens next! Is this just bouncing into the plateau again, or will it break through significantly? Spoiler: was 215.x the last 2 days. But that's still within noise range of 217; getting to say 212 or even sub 210 would be a clear signal.
> I haven't tried tomato sauce without ACV.
Hang on, isn't that just OG ex150? What else has changed?
Oh wait, you're right :D I probably meant that I haven't tried nosauce but without ACV.
Yes, 210 is roughly the threshold where that graph stops looking like exponential decay and I'll be surprised. If you get another vast drop like you did this time I'll be very surprised.
Good luck! Surprises are good. Being wrong is unavoidable; realising that you're wrong is how to be less wrong.
214.0
Wouldn't he be getting most of the protein from the meat? The sauce is just tomatoes and salt.
Yea, 80g of tomato sauce shouldn't have very much protein. 125ml are supposed to have 2g protein, and I would use less than that most days (target 80g, but sometimes I overshoot to maybe 100, so let's say 90 on average).
https://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/product/365-by-whole-foods-market-365-by-whole-foods-market-organic-fat-free-marinara-pasta-sauce-25-oz-b074h5z5t4
It's only a tiny bit, but you're only eating about the amount you need to avoid protein deficiency anyway, so if 'protein above deficiency level' is an important variable here, it *might* make a difference...
Interesting, thanks for sharing!
>If tomato sauce at lunch makes whipped cream at dinner more palatable, that’s some quantum entanglement stuff if I’ve ever seen it.
Weirdly for me when I eat lean protein (chicken breast, protein powder, etc) I feel some kind of urge to eat in waves all day. I have no idea what are the "timings" on the different "feedback loops", but I think it's possible to trigger hyperphagia from one meal to another.
Same for me! 45-60min after the lean protein, when the "fullness" disappears, I'm hungry again.
I was waiting with bated breath to read your results on this; it's great that you're seeing such success even after the water weight drop.
I actually decided to try vinegar + low sodium + low umami + low protein as well after reading the polyol research from you and mct4health, and 10 lbs fell off in a single week despite being normal BMI (on the high end of it, but still). Obviously mainly water weight, but I'm also experiencing the low food cravings you describe, and the scale keeps ticking down steadily. This is great considering I've been hovering at this close-to-overweight number for like a year no matter what low-PUFA foods I ate.
I really want to believe "the signal is actually not caused by total salt intake, but by salt concentration in the blood" but I feel the addictive "hit" you describe as soon as salt hits my tongue and have an immediate urge to consume as much of the food as possible. Then again, I've been feeling general salt cravings too, and had some electrolyte-imbalance fatigue. Maybe there is a low-but-not-bottoming-out sodium sweet spot. Also, by this logic, I would assume that things like energy drinks, which are 99% water, would not trigger it at all... and yet.
It continues to blow my mind how so many "commonsense diet advice" things ARE right after all... just not the way people pretend they are. I've heard "Fermented food is associated with better health! Uh, because, fiber maybe?" which sounded stupid so I never tried until now. Spoiler: probably the acetic acid causing the health boosts. I've heard "Oh, too much salt is bad" for ages but all people could ever follow up with was "because high blood pressure I guess?" But we'd see these generalized associations with heart disease and general chronic ills if it triggered overeating and inappropriate fat storage.
What would you estimate your daily salt intake is in mg on this diet, compared to before?
Yea we certainly don't understand it all haha. Not even very much, I'd say. Great to hear you're having results, keep me updated!
150g ground beef seem to have about 100mg of sodium, and 500ml of heavy cream about 135mg. If you add in maybe 1-2 energy drinks of let's say another 80mg a day.. somewhere around 300-400mg sodium/day?
Plus 150 mg of sodium in that serving of ACV supplement.
Ah, good point. Even attempting to do near zero sodium is still half a gram of sodium!
Fascinating stuff. Anecdotally I've noticed that tomato sauce makes me eat more. Unhinges the satiety signals just a smidge, somehow.
Oh well done, more buttons is good! And congratulations on your new PB.
As I remember you're 6'3"?
python3 -c 'print((216.7/2.2046)/ ((6*12+3)*0.0254) / ((6*12+3)*0.0254))'
27.085642889823784
Which I'd consider to be a very reasonable value. At least that was the BMI I maintained without thinking about it for most of my adult life. Awesome work. Do you still look fat?
I'm 6'1. Your memory is waning, old man! I get 29.1 BMI.
I have a spare tire, but in regular (size L shirts) clothes I just look like a stocky guy. At Walmart, I'd consider myself in the leaner 20% :)
> Your memory is waning, old man!
I should not have come back.
python3 -c 'h=(6*12+1)*0.0254; print((216.7/2.2046)/ (h*h))'
28.59011845660702
What have I messed up this time?
You're right, my script is taking the rolling average weight of the last 5 (I think) days. So it's just lagging behind a bit. Plus some rounding.
I'm in the process of working through possible treatments for a couple of mild defects in my fatty acid metabolism. One thing I'm noticing is that sometimes for full functioning I just need something closer to 4500 kCal/day than the 2500 to 3000 Oura usually recommends, and sometimes there's just no way to consume the right kCal without a sauce of some kind, such that I'm feeling fatigued, I've already eaten all the mashed potatoes and rice and bread I can stomach, I'm already replete on protein, but it feels like it would be good to eat a pizza.
Yea could try to swamp it up (bread + butter + fatty meat?) or try for more calorically dense foods (typically fats).
Hi, long-term lurker here! I find this newsletter fascinating and I appreciate you sharing all your experiments with us!
I'm not overweight but I'm interested in the satiety/food noise reduction aspect of all this. I did a long keto trial (almost a year) a few years ago, and it was amazing for many things (My skin was glowing! I didn't get sore after exercise! Zero sunburnt!) but unfortunately, I did have a lot of cravings and I started experiencing bad cramps that wouldn't go away no matter how many electrolytes I'd add or in what proportions.
I was wondering if ketosis is crucial here, or if you could mimic some aspects of this diet while eating some targeted carbs to avoid the side effects some might have when in long-term ketosis.
I know swamping is bad, but maybe isolated carbs with zero fat? Maybe before/after exercise?
Apologies if it's a stupid question, and thanks again for all your work!
You could either go full ketard, or you could try the opposite - very low fat, moderate protein, high carbs?
Or since you're not looking to lose weight, maybe staying on either side of the swamp isn't important for you and you could just eat a mixed diet.
It's possible that swamping is only bad for obese people, or even a subset.
I read your piece of how “obesity” is complex and felt seen.
I’m badly allergic to acv(tablet or any form).
Is there any other mechanism that can be tried out?
The idea is to get acetic acid; not sure if that's what you're allergic to or something else? I think Jaromir (https://mct4health.blogspot.com/) also mentions certain other short chain fatty acids besides acetic acid, maybe you do better on one of those? I forget which ones and how to get them in :(
The last few days I've made a concerted effort to not salt my food (e.g. tallow-roasted potatoes, ribeye, steamed broccoli) and have also noticed a decreased desire to eat later on.
And, yes, Rao's is absolutely crack. I don't eat it every day, but I don't plan to give it up anytime soon...
It would be interesting to test whether potassium salt is ok to eat
Yea I have no clue how to even think of that. I don't understand the chemistry enough.
Congrats, very exciting for you. I'm curious does the ACV really matter or is it the lack of salt/unami that seems to done the plateau. have you done the no salt/taste without ACV yet?
I haven't done that branch, but just ex150acv plus tomato sauce already did about half this effect. So I think it does something.
I might have missed it, but what is the lunch meal?
The base diet (ex150) is described here. of course it has the sauce option still
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/ex150-diet-macros-2294kcal-88-fat
1. I sense records in your future. sub-210 by end November. Maybe even sub 200 early next year!
2. Can you explain the philosophy of the refeeds?
I also had a question about the refeeds. It sounds to me like a euphemism for "cheat days"