Man, bread & butter is delicious. But yeah, so easy to overeat. I had the same experience when I experimented: delicious but way too easy to eat to the point of feeling discomfort.
I'm increasingly unconvinced that "the swamp" is a metabolically desirable or historically common place for us to hang out. Delicious for short periods, yes. But for day-to-day meals?
Lately I've been eating the polar opposite of ex150: low fat & no animal products. Tons of oatmeal, fruit, whole grains like farro / einkorn / buckwheat / rye in the rice cooker, veggies roasted with no oil, just a little lemon juice, dark green leafy veg like collards wilted with onions and mushrooms & white wine to deglaze the pan.
I think this is the best I've ever eaten in my life and the best I've ever felt.Tons of fiber of course, and if I weren't already fiber-adapted I'd be in more distress. I think it took me 2-3 months to get fiber-adapted when I first went from low carb to low fat.
Weight is dropping fast but too early to say anything definite about that.
Shockingly, I've been getting "cement truck" satiety from salads. But not like your calorie-free 11-lb carrot monstrosity. More like a base of lettuce with warm grain on top, beans or crumbled tempeh, olives, artichoke hearts, pickled onions, and maybe some avocado or nuts or drizzled with a little tahini & lemon juice.
The wide variety of foods seems key for me for maximal satiety, along with keeping fat & protein low and mostly eating "whole" foods not stripped of their fiber. According to Macrofactor I've been just about bang on 70/15/15% ratios for carb/fat/protein.
Anyway, always enjoy your adventures, thought I'd report my latest explorations.
Ha one day I'll stick with HCLFLP for longer. Probably with a rice base, will see. But I sort of need to "clear my calendar" (of experiments, logistics, etc) for 3-6 months.
I gotta say, adding a wide variety of veggies & small amounts of plant fats (cashew sauce, tahini, nuts / avocado) makes it way more fun than the first version I tried. Plus something about this version (the high fiber? the broad array of micronutrients?) makes it feel more… sustainable? complete? Idk how to explain I'm just not getting the "diet itch" of "something is missing."
Ha I've never heard of it, but I know the type. Likes to eat non-caloric huge salads. TBH I don't know if this is "addiction" as much as learning to incorrectly associate bloating with satiety? Of course if you eat low-caloric-density food you'll have to eat huge amounts.
I'm listening to the "Quit Sugar Summit" (I can put a link if it's allowed) - QuitSugarSummit(dot)com, which is free if you sign up via email - but they only give you one day to listen to between 7-9 speakers, it's a 7-day virtual conference. I digress, I learned today that 60% of the people with Type 2 diabetes are "lean," and only in the U.S. is that statistic reversed (you probably did a post on this though). So, that might explain why Asians are lean on rice,
but yet not healthy.
Anyway, that tidbit came from an ND - naturopathic doctor - a profession that I don't usu respect. however, this lady knew her stuff, Beverly Yates, ND. (she just wrote a book called "The Yates Protocol" it's being released Jan 20), but she trained as an electrical engineer at MIT before becoming a naturopath, FWIW. Here are today's speakers for the summit, I recommend the summit overall. not that I agree with everyone! https://quitsugarsummit.com/qss_2026_day-4_thursday
actually, I'd say that a lot of today's speaker (Day 4 of the summit), I do not agree with. probably half. Too many "grifters" in the nutrition field (like these new age, or even Christian gurus that make weight loss all about "inner healing") and/or predators. Everyone wants to make a buck off the prediabetics/type 2 diabetics. Some of these people give them crap advice, it's eye-opening!
I think it's not just the U.S., but it seems to depend on genetics, yea. I think obesity and diabetes are both symptoms of metabolic dysfunction, and which one (or both or neither) you get is influenced by e.g. genetics.
Try some unsalted bread (hard to find, but it exists). You will be satiated much sooner. There is something about salt that interferes with satiety. The salt level in bread has also gone up over the years. I keep coming back to this, but I don't think salt is trivial or benign.
If I were to do bread again, I'd probably try pure bread without butter. And make my own bread. This was just about the best I could find w/o making everything myself from scratch (incl. flour).
That way I could make it 100% salt free and test "just the bread" without interference.
That's an interesting idea. I make my own bread and have never tried salt-less bread, but as a general rule bread usually has about 2% of the weight of the flour as salt. So in your estimate of 2lb/908g of bread per day they probably used about 908*0.02 = 18g salt in that loaf.
Sorry, I realized that I read your post too quickly and thought that you said 908g flour instead of 908g bread. The percentage is based on the flour so, looking at other recipes, 908g bread would probably be around 600g flour so closer to 12g salt.
I imagine salt is mainly there for flavor, although I believe it controls fermentation somewhat. I've read about "Tuscan bread" which is traditionally salt-free so you could look into that. They say it is bland because it is usually topped with flavorful toppings. I've never tried it. If you made your own you could try using half the salt or something.
Ah, still, quite a bit! The RDA is like 2.3g for an adult male, I think, and I am usually dramatically below that with nosauce/acv. And eating more than 1 loaf a day, that's easily 10x my usual sodium intake. You don't really taste it in the bread I suppose.
Surely explains the extreme water gain/loss. Today is day 2 of back on ex150 and I've already lost nearly 7lbs of water weight lol.
I looked it up once you mentioned it, and yea mostly flavor but also keeps the yeast in check so it doesn't raise up too fast?
If I were to make my own, I'd def try totally without bread and see how hyper-palatable it is hah.
The 12g salt is only partially sodium, it looks like that much salt would be about 4.6g sodium. Which, yes, is still significantly above the RDA. I think they expect most people to not eat a whole loaf! :-) If you try some without salt I'd be curious how it tastes.
Yea looking in the USDA database I found typically around 5g sodium for 3,000kcal of most types of bread. Seems somewhat constant, maybe that's just the right amount for the yeast to do well.
> Since I no longer believe that carbs do lasting damage to me, maybe that helps - worst case it sets back weight loss a bit. I am still quite aggressive on avoiding seed oils, though. Interesting how the mindset/belief in what constitutes “healthy” makes it easy/hard to have “willpower.”
This has basically been me for the past 1½ years (ever since seriously ditching PUFAs). I found some RealBread™ (though not as real as yours) that I eat maybe 1x per week with butter. Just last night, I made biscuits from scratch with organic, unbleached, unenriched flour and butter and goat milk. They were delicious.
I can see a bit more fat on my abdomen, but I'm only up about 2% of bodyweight, so I find myself thinking, "well, maybe it's worth it."
I gained about 5% of my bodyweight during Covid eating seed oil breads from Walmart and Domino's. Then went hardcore-ish low-carb for 2 years and dropped to my weight in high school. I like that weight, but I also like eating bread and butter and occasional ice cream, so here we are.
I think I could get back down to my weight minimum if I go back to the other diet, but is it worth it?
Yea, it seems to become a trade off for most people. That said, most people now are metabolically impacted in some way, even if they've avoided seed oils for a couple of years.
But maybe the ancestral french croissant cavemen were 2% fatter than the lean, mean low-carb cavemen or the Asian rice cavemen.. who knows. Might be an acceptable trade-off if you're otherwise healthy and "lean enough."
It's one of those things that I'll think about when I get there lol.
This is not the only study like this. And some genetic peculiarities in other papers. There might be some kind of switch at that macro-ratio and the way mufa and safa proportions interact with carbs.
Ha interesting that they were talking about this even *checks watch* 17 years ago?!
I think that "insulin resistance" in the acute sense is actually good; it's a mechanism, like the Randle Cycle, of working through the available mixed fuel substrates correctly. If you stick to keto, or stick to carbs, you don't need to switch, and you can go through the pile much quicker - if this is normal/healthy/ancestral or a downstream effect of something something metabolic damage I don't know.
But short-term insulin resistance is basically just supposed to make you less hungry after you eat a butter croissant or other mixed meal, since it gave you more energy.
It becomes a problem when it's chronic, but it might not be the root cause. I think it's just another symptom, like diabetes and obesity.
Oh, I'm fully subscribed to the "protons" view of insulin resistance from reading hyperlipid. What caught my attention was that fat intake below 37%kcal made a mufa dominant diet more insulin-sensitizing, while @ > 37% fat made that same diet more insulin-resisting. While the pufa and safa are consistently one way or the other. Like there's some inflection point at that amount.
Oh, I missed that. Very curious. I'm sure Peter would have detailed opinions on what that means, but I'll admit I'm not quite sure - e.g. is SFA one that makes you more satiated, PUFA breaks that, MUFA sort of depends? Or is that just my pro-SFA bias? Hmmm.
I read Peter saying MUFA is the animal default, at least for mamals. Strong words for a self proclaimed "saturophile". MUFA works *with* insulin, but can also repel it like SAFAs do, just at a higher concentration. So, yeah, sort of in the middle, like you said.
The body does seem to maintain a certain level of mufa dominance(with the desaturase enzymes). I just don't want to go through the $250 paywal on the old Cordain paper(referenced in Robb Wolf's reply), where they analyze whole carcass wild game and see what the fatty acid percentages are. But I am very curious. He says safa was a very low percentage. Something I'm digging into right now.
Hm I'd be surprised. When I render my own suet, the grass fed stuff is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than the commercial grain fed. There might be less fat and therefore less saturated fat total on a wild animal, but I'd expect the SFA% of fats to be higher.
Also on the "MUFA is the default" eh not really? It is a certain mix of mostly oleic and palmitic, but yea oleic is higher. But I think it's more in the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio or so? The body makes palmitic and then desaturates it into oleic, and it does that with a lot of it. Oleic surely seems to be the plurality. But still, lots of palmitic, and quite a bit of stearic as well. You're not going to find an animal that has 90% MUFA fat, I think, more like 40-50%. Especially wild/healthy ones, you might be able to create such a pig/chicken by raising it entirely on olive oil..
Yeah, was thinking 60-70% mufa would be shocking enough. If grass finished beef is 50/50 mufa/safa, where can this go....
Well, it can go to blind luck of finding the paywalled paper just hanging out online(https://direct-ms.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Fatty-Acid-animals-PDF.pdf) and seeing that lean wild animal sub-q fat is actually..... 60%+ saturated. So, all that lean game was still over half-way saturated, even when factoring in the brain, marrow and intra-muscle, because subcutaneous fat makes up about 80%-90% of whole carcass fat.
So, it seems Robb in 2009 meant that because game is so lean our safa intake was quite low, like you mentioned.
Another paper analyzed sub-q fat of wild goose, badger and boar. Now these are indeed MUFA dominant: ~50% MUFA, 32% SAFA and 16%PUFA give or take. And there was something about an elephant recently. It was no different than beef.
The northern climate small or fatty game hunting may have led to some recent genetic changes in some humans. Fun stuff. But nothing consequential so far.
I wonder if the reflux is from h.pylori as some have suggested and over the years it's died off pretty much?
With the wind I wonder if it's yeast? Do you know if you had sourdough or yeasted bread? Also I used to have peppermint tea a lot to help with bloating. Not sure if that's great for reflux though (I be heard it's not necessarily great).
I wonder if adding jam would help with the protein percentage or if that's too much sugar 🤷🏻♀️. I also have reservations (which I know you have addressed somewhere else) about artificial sweeteners and what that does to receptors.
I love the write up. And look forward to the next experiment 😅
It was mostly yeasted bread, only a bit sourdough. With the bacteria that could be, not sure. Would def be interesting. If I were to do bread again, I'd probably splurge for the stone grinder and just make my own flour & control the ingredients that way 100%.
Jam on top of the butter, you mean? Could help with the protein%, but also it's fructose which traditionally hasn't made things better for me haha..
Yea so weird. I thought maybe it's protein leverage hunger, but I was actually getting 2x the protein I normally get?
One thing I noticed today back on ex150.. man I drank the exact same amount of coffee + cream on the bread+butter diet as I do now, but I also ate like 2,500kcal of bread + butter on top :D It's like the carb calories just never made it "into my satiety" on the mixed diet? On the pure rice diet, they did... hmm..
Exciting, sure sounds like you're getting better!
Weight gain from higher protein (1kg/week is roughly what I get too)?
Gas from fermentation (but why? and why not from other starches?)
Acid reflux Christ knows (fermentation? h.pylori? (in which case get that fixed, it's bad news, antibiotics should kill it.))
One theory for the gas is the yeast in bread. Luckily, no acid reflux now :) That was years ago.
Ah must have misread, sorry.
Oh totes, if you eat live yeast and sugar together it's hilarious. But surely your bread has been cooked at some point?
Yea it has, and don't call me Shirley!
I'm so glad that you finally tried the swamp! Very interesting results, the notes on the different types of satiety are really interesting.
Man, bread & butter is delicious. But yeah, so easy to overeat. I had the same experience when I experimented: delicious but way too easy to eat to the point of feeling discomfort.
I'm increasingly unconvinced that "the swamp" is a metabolically desirable or historically common place for us to hang out. Delicious for short periods, yes. But for day-to-day meals?
Lately I've been eating the polar opposite of ex150: low fat & no animal products. Tons of oatmeal, fruit, whole grains like farro / einkorn / buckwheat / rye in the rice cooker, veggies roasted with no oil, just a little lemon juice, dark green leafy veg like collards wilted with onions and mushrooms & white wine to deglaze the pan.
I think this is the best I've ever eaten in my life and the best I've ever felt.Tons of fiber of course, and if I weren't already fiber-adapted I'd be in more distress. I think it took me 2-3 months to get fiber-adapted when I first went from low carb to low fat.
Weight is dropping fast but too early to say anything definite about that.
Shockingly, I've been getting "cement truck" satiety from salads. But not like your calorie-free 11-lb carrot monstrosity. More like a base of lettuce with warm grain on top, beans or crumbled tempeh, olives, artichoke hearts, pickled onions, and maybe some avocado or nuts or drizzled with a little tahini & lemon juice.
The wide variety of foods seems key for me for maximal satiety, along with keeping fat & protein low and mostly eating "whole" foods not stripped of their fiber. According to Macrofactor I've been just about bang on 70/15/15% ratios for carb/fat/protein.
Anyway, always enjoy your adventures, thought I'd report my latest explorations.
Ha one day I'll stick with HCLFLP for longer. Probably with a rice base, will see. But I sort of need to "clear my calendar" (of experiments, logistics, etc) for 3-6 months.
I gotta say, adding a wide variety of veggies & small amounts of plant fats (cashew sauce, tahini, nuts / avocado) makes it way more fun than the first version I tried. Plus something about this version (the high fiber? the broad array of micronutrients?) makes it feel more… sustainable? complete? Idk how to explain I'm just not getting the "diet itch" of "something is missing."
But yeah it's kind of an undertaking.
What do you think of this paper from Vera Talman, M.D. on "volume addiction" https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/public-health/articles/10.3389/fpubh.2025.1760037/full I'm not a clinician, but I thought this was interesting.
Ha I've never heard of it, but I know the type. Likes to eat non-caloric huge salads. TBH I don't know if this is "addiction" as much as learning to incorrectly associate bloating with satiety? Of course if you eat low-caloric-density food you'll have to eat huge amounts.
I'm listening to the "Quit Sugar Summit" (I can put a link if it's allowed) - QuitSugarSummit(dot)com, which is free if you sign up via email - but they only give you one day to listen to between 7-9 speakers, it's a 7-day virtual conference. I digress, I learned today that 60% of the people with Type 2 diabetes are "lean," and only in the U.S. is that statistic reversed (you probably did a post on this though). So, that might explain why Asians are lean on rice,
but yet not healthy.
Anyway, that tidbit came from an ND - naturopathic doctor - a profession that I don't usu respect. however, this lady knew her stuff, Beverly Yates, ND. (she just wrote a book called "The Yates Protocol" it's being released Jan 20), but she trained as an electrical engineer at MIT before becoming a naturopath, FWIW. Here are today's speakers for the summit, I recommend the summit overall. not that I agree with everyone! https://quitsugarsummit.com/qss_2026_day-4_thursday
actually, I'd say that a lot of today's speaker (Day 4 of the summit), I do not agree with. probably half. Too many "grifters" in the nutrition field (like these new age, or even Christian gurus that make weight loss all about "inner healing") and/or predators. Everyone wants to make a buck off the prediabetics/type 2 diabetics. Some of these people give them crap advice, it's eye-opening!
I think it's not just the U.S., but it seems to depend on genetics, yea. I think obesity and diabetes are both symptoms of metabolic dysfunction, and which one (or both or neither) you get is influenced by e.g. genetics.
Try some unsalted bread (hard to find, but it exists). You will be satiated much sooner. There is something about salt that interferes with satiety. The salt level in bread has also gone up over the years. I keep coming back to this, but I don't think salt is trivial or benign.
If I were to do bread again, I'd probably try pure bread without butter. And make my own bread. This was just about the best I could find w/o making everything myself from scratch (incl. flour).
That way I could make it 100% salt free and test "just the bread" without interference.
That's an interesting idea. I make my own bread and have never tried salt-less bread, but as a general rule bread usually has about 2% of the weight of the flour as salt. So in your estimate of 2lb/908g of bread per day they probably used about 908*0.02 = 18g salt in that loaf.
Oh dang that is a TON of salt. Any idea why they do that, is it required?
Sorry, I realized that I read your post too quickly and thought that you said 908g flour instead of 908g bread. The percentage is based on the flour so, looking at other recipes, 908g bread would probably be around 600g flour so closer to 12g salt.
I imagine salt is mainly there for flavor, although I believe it controls fermentation somewhat. I've read about "Tuscan bread" which is traditionally salt-free so you could look into that. They say it is bland because it is usually topped with flavorful toppings. I've never tried it. If you made your own you could try using half the salt or something.
Ah, still, quite a bit! The RDA is like 2.3g for an adult male, I think, and I am usually dramatically below that with nosauce/acv. And eating more than 1 loaf a day, that's easily 10x my usual sodium intake. You don't really taste it in the bread I suppose.
Surely explains the extreme water gain/loss. Today is day 2 of back on ex150 and I've already lost nearly 7lbs of water weight lol.
I looked it up once you mentioned it, and yea mostly flavor but also keeps the yeast in check so it doesn't raise up too fast?
If I were to make my own, I'd def try totally without bread and see how hyper-palatable it is hah.
The 12g salt is only partially sodium, it looks like that much salt would be about 4.6g sodium. Which, yes, is still significantly above the RDA. I think they expect most people to not eat a whole loaf! :-) If you try some without salt I'd be curious how it tastes.
Yea looking in the USDA database I found typically around 5g sodium for 3,000kcal of most types of bread. Seems somewhat constant, maybe that's just the right amount for the yeast to do well.
> Since I no longer believe that carbs do lasting damage to me, maybe that helps - worst case it sets back weight loss a bit. I am still quite aggressive on avoiding seed oils, though. Interesting how the mindset/belief in what constitutes “healthy” makes it easy/hard to have “willpower.”
This has basically been me for the past 1½ years (ever since seriously ditching PUFAs). I found some RealBread™ (though not as real as yours) that I eat maybe 1x per week with butter. Just last night, I made biscuits from scratch with organic, unbleached, unenriched flour and butter and goat milk. They were delicious.
I can see a bit more fat on my abdomen, but I'm only up about 2% of bodyweight, so I find myself thinking, "well, maybe it's worth it."
I gained about 5% of my bodyweight during Covid eating seed oil breads from Walmart and Domino's. Then went hardcore-ish low-carb for 2 years and dropped to my weight in high school. I like that weight, but I also like eating bread and butter and occasional ice cream, so here we are.
I think I could get back down to my weight minimum if I go back to the other diet, but is it worth it?
Yea, it seems to become a trade off for most people. That said, most people now are metabolically impacted in some way, even if they've avoided seed oils for a couple of years.
But maybe the ancestral french croissant cavemen were 2% fatter than the lean, mean low-carb cavemen or the Asian rice cavemen.. who knows. Might be an acceptable trade-off if you're otherwise healthy and "lean enough."
It's one of those things that I'll think about when I get there lol.
I think I remember hearing about an ancient cave painting that depicted a butter croissant... 😀
Speaking of 37-38% fat, you might enjoy the study quote in the question of this throwback post from Paleo hey-day: https://robbwolf.com/2009/03/12/fat-and-insulin-sensitivity/
This is not the only study like this. And some genetic peculiarities in other papers. There might be some kind of switch at that macro-ratio and the way mufa and safa proportions interact with carbs.
Ha interesting that they were talking about this even *checks watch* 17 years ago?!
I think that "insulin resistance" in the acute sense is actually good; it's a mechanism, like the Randle Cycle, of working through the available mixed fuel substrates correctly. If you stick to keto, or stick to carbs, you don't need to switch, and you can go through the pile much quicker - if this is normal/healthy/ancestral or a downstream effect of something something metabolic damage I don't know.
But short-term insulin resistance is basically just supposed to make you less hungry after you eat a butter croissant or other mixed meal, since it gave you more energy.
It becomes a problem when it's chronic, but it might not be the root cause. I think it's just another symptom, like diabetes and obesity.
Oh, I'm fully subscribed to the "protons" view of insulin resistance from reading hyperlipid. What caught my attention was that fat intake below 37%kcal made a mufa dominant diet more insulin-sensitizing, while @ > 37% fat made that same diet more insulin-resisting. While the pufa and safa are consistently one way or the other. Like there's some inflection point at that amount.
Oh, I missed that. Very curious. I'm sure Peter would have detailed opinions on what that means, but I'll admit I'm not quite sure - e.g. is SFA one that makes you more satiated, PUFA breaks that, MUFA sort of depends? Or is that just my pro-SFA bias? Hmmm.
I read Peter saying MUFA is the animal default, at least for mamals. Strong words for a self proclaimed "saturophile". MUFA works *with* insulin, but can also repel it like SAFAs do, just at a higher concentration. So, yeah, sort of in the middle, like you said.
The body does seem to maintain a certain level of mufa dominance(with the desaturase enzymes). I just don't want to go through the $250 paywal on the old Cordain paper(referenced in Robb Wolf's reply), where they analyze whole carcass wild game and see what the fatty acid percentages are. But I am very curious. He says safa was a very low percentage. Something I'm digging into right now.
Hm I'd be surprised. When I render my own suet, the grass fed stuff is SIGNIFICANTLY harder than the commercial grain fed. There might be less fat and therefore less saturated fat total on a wild animal, but I'd expect the SFA% of fats to be higher.
Also on the "MUFA is the default" eh not really? It is a certain mix of mostly oleic and palmitic, but yea oleic is higher. But I think it's more in the 2/3 to 1/3 ratio or so? The body makes palmitic and then desaturates it into oleic, and it does that with a lot of it. Oleic surely seems to be the plurality. But still, lots of palmitic, and quite a bit of stearic as well. You're not going to find an animal that has 90% MUFA fat, I think, more like 40-50%. Especially wild/healthy ones, you might be able to create such a pig/chicken by raising it entirely on olive oil..
Yeah, was thinking 60-70% mufa would be shocking enough. If grass finished beef is 50/50 mufa/safa, where can this go....
Well, it can go to blind luck of finding the paywalled paper just hanging out online(https://direct-ms.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Fatty-Acid-animals-PDF.pdf) and seeing that lean wild animal sub-q fat is actually..... 60%+ saturated. So, all that lean game was still over half-way saturated, even when factoring in the brain, marrow and intra-muscle, because subcutaneous fat makes up about 80%-90% of whole carcass fat.
So, it seems Robb in 2009 meant that because game is so lean our safa intake was quite low, like you mentioned.
Another paper analyzed sub-q fat of wild goose, badger and boar. Now these are indeed MUFA dominant: ~50% MUFA, 32% SAFA and 16%PUFA give or take. And there was something about an elephant recently. It was no different than beef.
The northern climate small or fatty game hunting may have led to some recent genetic changes in some humans. Fun stuff. But nothing consequential so far.
Wow that's a great write up. Just some musings -
I wonder if the reflux is from h.pylori as some have suggested and over the years it's died off pretty much?
With the wind I wonder if it's yeast? Do you know if you had sourdough or yeasted bread? Also I used to have peppermint tea a lot to help with bloating. Not sure if that's great for reflux though (I be heard it's not necessarily great).
I wonder if adding jam would help with the protein percentage or if that's too much sugar 🤷🏻♀️. I also have reservations (which I know you have addressed somewhere else) about artificial sweeteners and what that does to receptors.
I love the write up. And look forward to the next experiment 😅
Thanks!
It was mostly yeasted bread, only a bit sourdough. With the bacteria that could be, not sure. Would def be interesting. If I were to do bread again, I'd probably splurge for the stone grinder and just make my own flour & control the ingredients that way 100%.
Jam on top of the butter, you mean? Could help with the protein%, but also it's fructose which traditionally hasn't made things better for me haha..
Yea so weird. I thought maybe it's protein leverage hunger, but I was actually getting 2x the protein I normally get?
One thing I noticed today back on ex150.. man I drank the exact same amount of coffee + cream on the bread+butter diet as I do now, but I also ate like 2,500kcal of bread + butter on top :D It's like the carb calories just never made it "into my satiety" on the mixed diet? On the pure rice diet, they did... hmm..