I'm still on your diet since 6. Apr., six weeks now. Always wanted to share my experiences with you, but didn't yet because of a) some setbacks I am still not sure how it will play out and b) my graphing software isn't ready ;-).
But I intend to keep it up until I am at my GW -or- continuing somehow is not possible -or- I notice I stop adhering without really knowing why (which is the most frustrating error mode, also the one I expect: it just becomes too inconvenient or hard. But maybe it is not about willpower but something else, undiscovered.)
Anyway, if you want I can share my data (body weight, grams/kcal butter/cream consumed, maybe steps, RR, keto breath/urine, events) so far. But you have to do the graphs, if you want them ;) Do you have specific questions?
Results are vaguely promising. My current working theory is that it's still caloric restriction, but easier to persevere because of a) the non-negotionable rules and b) low carb. Caloric restriction because I am below my TDEE and I could easily (and want to) raise my caloric intake by upping the butter and cream amount. But I am scared, so I don't.
Yea, definitely interested in the results. Even if it's only vaguely working or not working. After all I'm trying to figure out what makes it work - so if I only hear from people where it's a huge success, that doesn't help much, either ;)
Can you just email me at hello@exfatloss.com and then I'll come up with some specific questions (I still haven't fully decided what factors are even important, lol). Thanks!
So, not having any dairy intolerance, does that mean you're able to eat some cream but not a lot? Or does even a bit give you issues?
If more than a small amount of cream gives you any issues, I'd advise against doing ex150 as is. You could substitute coconut milk instead if you just want to try it. Let me know if you're doing it, as I'd be very interested to see if that works, even if it's not "officially" part of the trial.
I haven't tried recently. I could try though! Anyone else in the comments have this issue and care to chime in so I don't have to risk breaking out in acne?
Coconut anything (including milk) is even worse, sadly.
Huh, very interesting. Sounds like you should try raw milk? I've actually tried looking around for raw cream, but have been told it basically doesn't exist: cream is basically a byproduct of skim milk production, and nobody who buys raw milk wants it skim :D So they'd have to pour out half the product in order to make the cream.
I don't know if cream has enough lactose or casein to trigger your issues. It's certainly lower than milk, especially by calories, but I'm still consuming a pint per day or more, so it might add up.
You could always try to slowly ramp up and see if there's any problems. If no problems, could try ex150. If problems, find another saturated fat source. If coconut doesn't work either, I can think of cocoa butter, beef fat trimmings/suet, just plain butter (should be even lower in lactose/casein than cream?). Unfortunately, these are all pretty much as hardcore or more than ex150, you'd be eating basically braised beef fat :) Although it's so calorie dense you wouldn't need to eat much, as 100g already have over 1,000kcal.
I want fully reliable fat loss for the summertime (which we discussed before my method). But I'll keep this parked for later! Eagerly watching the results.
I also do plan to figure this out as I would love to eat cream and raw milk before too long. Once I hit the weight loss goals though I can test some of these fat sources if not just raw milk itself
Ex, do you have a specific issue with sweeteners in drinks, as that is mentioned as a parameter of the trail? I have been doing Ex150 but also drinking flavored waters with aspartame in them and have not noticed any issues regarding weight gain or appetite increase. Is there something I should know about regarding a sweetener like aspartame (or sucralose, allulose, etc)?
I'm not entirely sure. For a few months in the beginning of doing this, I actually drank 1-2 energy drinks w/ monk fruit religiously every day. And I did lose a ton of weight, and I didn't get any satiety issues.
But I noticed that if I added monk fruit-sweetened magnesium powder to my cream, it absolutely killed my satiety - I simply wouldn't get any satiety ever. And that was despite the sweetness actually making the cream kind of disgusting, it was much too sweet.
So I'd say: be careful, but it seems to be able to still work. Maybe don't mix sweeteners with real meals, since "lack of satiety" for essentially water is fine, but for food is not?
PS: I replied to your email, in case you haven't seen it. Thanks again for the data!
Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make sure you didn't have a "PUFA-like" theory for artificial sweeteners that could cause an issue regarding weight.
I actually tried going without the aspartame drinks for 2 weeks to try and get my hunger under control but it seemed to make it worse so I started drinking them again. I feel like I'm in a good place now and the hunger hasn't been an issue for about a week with my current version of Ex150.
Thanks for the heads-up about your reply email; it was in the spam folder so I never would have found it.
I want to try ex150 (am currently trying something like it), but I think I'd rather leave myself room to experiment, so I don't want to commit to a trial protocol, however I can let you know how it goes if you like.
Following your excellent example I have tentatively set up a substack to record observations.
I'd be keen to try, but I'm British, and I don't think we have heavy cream. You can get double cream or extra-thick double cream, which are both about 55% fat and made of pure milk. Will they do?
Also do I have to whip it? That sounds like a pain and I'm quite happy eating them out of the pot with a spoon!
I’m an American living in UK. Our heavy cream at home is between single and double cream here in fat content but the thickness is most similar to double cream.
I see. In that case, I'd still recommend whipping it. Just in case there's a difference in drinking cream vs. eating whipped cream. I had imagined it more like yogurt/sour cream consistency.
So the thing is, the heavy cream here is liquid, so you'd have to whip it. My understanding is, yours is practically solid? If you CAN eat it with a spoon straight from the pot, that would work. Our cream you could drink, but not eat with a spoon ;)
I hope this works out for you, though I don't meet your criteria. I wrote my summary on an earlier post, but I have been following your diet for almost a month, and am only about 6 pounds above my target weight.
I started the year at 210, hoping to get down to 190. A fairly conventional Keto diet got me the first 10 pounds, but stalled. I spent a couple of months at right around 200 , feeling like nothing could drop my weight any farther. Switching out some of the meat and eggs for cream dropped my weight by about another 5 pounds before stabilizing. I feel good, fully satisfied, with the least amount of joint pain I have had in years, but I am starting to wonder:
-What will it take to get that last 5 or 6 pounds, or when I get there will I want another 5?
-Is this really a good long-term maintenance diet, with the protein so low?
-Can I adapt this to the schedule of real life, with family and company events?
Hey :) Glad it's working pretty good for you, even if though you're already very close to your goal weight. When you stop the diet either due to a) reaching your GW or b) it ceasing to bring you any closer, could you send me your weight data (or any related data you have)? Would be very interesting. The more data I have of people the more I can try and figure out "ok this works for everyone/nobody/people who wear blue sockts."
Regarding your questions, I'm just guessing but here would be my guesses:
- You might be so close to your goal weight that "metabolism-normalizing diets" don't get you any more. You might have to resort to classic bodybuilder-style starving yourself. ex150 is way more ketogenic than most common internet keto diets, very close to the therapeutic ketogenic diet. But that might only buy you those 5lbs if you're already close.
- No. The protein is quite low, you'll lack essential micro nutrients. I don't have an exact plan yet, but I vaguely plan to up protein either a little bit over time, or kind of pulse it on/off for a few weeks at a time, once I hit my goal weight. Especially if you exercise you'll need more protein.
- I became very good at adapting regular keto, so this is just a little step extra from that. But I suspect that as you "normalize" the diet into a maintenance diet, it'll be less awkward anyway: now you can maybe eat the whole steak, so nobody at work is wondering why you're weird.
I am glad that I stumbled on your interview with Slime Mold Time Mold, though I also ended up encountering you through the Fire in a Bottle community that I also follow. Here are some of the things that I have gotten out of this ~ 1 month period:
- I am the lightest that I have been in about 5 years, and the food is both good and satisfying. I picked the target of 190, since that was what I weighed the last time that I felt healthy and fit, 7 years ago. I have to keep reminding myself that the weight itself is not the goal, but the healthy feeling.
- I had tried both high protein and high fat Keto before. The high protein left me with cravings that I couldn't satisfy, and the high fat left me nauseous. This diet did not do either of those things. I love that I can work-put right after dinner instead of waiting to feel less bloated.
- I added dill pickles to your official recommendation for two reasons. First, I was getting some pretty severe muscle cramps, and the salt and vinegar helps. Second, I missed eating things that crunch.
- I plan to slowly ramp up the protein, but I think that I will keep the overall levels lower than I did in the past. I had always learned that protein was the most important nutrient, especially if I wanted to maintain any muscle into middle age. Now, I am thinking that it may be oversold. One of my favorite books on fitness, "Body by Science" talks about how we have over emphasized dietary protein. Maybe I should have listened.
Haha who knew the vegans were right about something, amirite? :)
Great that it's working so well for you. Yea, the convenience/comfort factor of never being "full" or bloated is surprisingly cool. I REALLY missed that when I went off the diet between trials. I had never realized how uncomfortable that really made me. Now I just stop thinking about eating the second I'm done. No waiting around for digestion, just like you say.
The crunchy thing is interesting, my meal is actually very crunchy in texture because I sear my ground beef to a crisp. Plus, I dry age it in the fridge for 2-3 days. So maybe adding dill pickles is an interesting psychological/texture addition for people that like their meat less charred? Another point for accidentally doing the right thing, lol.
I have yet to read Body by Science, but it's on my list. As I get older I am moving away from "Ra ra let's squat and deadlift!" and more to "ok, what's the least amount of effort I can put in to get stronger and healthier?" and that's what that book seems to be all about.
One question: when you did high fat keto before, what exactly were you doing? Because I also always got nauseous even eating 2 ribeyes, all that hot beef fat just wouldn't agree with me. I even put steaks in the fridge because they seemed to agree better when cold, lol. (And were still pretty tasty.)
I was eating mostly ground beef that was around 73% lean, and couldn't handle all of the liquid fat. I would try cooking eggs or vegetables with it to try and soak it up, but it never fully worked. I would read online accounts from people who they would drink it like broth. Meanwhile, I was pulling over while driving because it would not stay down.
With Body by Science, I have found that the progress is slower than it was with barbells and the power rack in my basement, but I don't keep getting derailed by injuries. I have had joint problems since I was a kid, and barbell programs always started out with strength improvements and optimism, then an injury would sideline me for a few months. By the time I was recovered, I was starting over with those same lifts. But with slow, controlled lifts to failure I don't have all of those setbacks. And it is very time efficient.
Yea the injury thing really got big in my 30s. One bad rep at benching and the elbow is tweaked for 6 months. Great. Squats I never dared go all out due to knees feeling weird.
I had the exact same experience with the liquid fat. One of the reasons I use vegetables at all on this diet. I basically think there's no nutrition reason, but it's so much tastier with some greens and sauce to soak up the beef fat..
I'm still on your diet since 6. Apr., six weeks now. Always wanted to share my experiences with you, but didn't yet because of a) some setbacks I am still not sure how it will play out and b) my graphing software isn't ready ;-).
But I intend to keep it up until I am at my GW -or- continuing somehow is not possible -or- I notice I stop adhering without really knowing why (which is the most frustrating error mode, also the one I expect: it just becomes too inconvenient or hard. But maybe it is not about willpower but something else, undiscovered.)
Anyway, if you want I can share my data (body weight, grams/kcal butter/cream consumed, maybe steps, RR, keto breath/urine, events) so far. But you have to do the graphs, if you want them ;) Do you have specific questions?
Results are vaguely promising. My current working theory is that it's still caloric restriction, but easier to persevere because of a) the non-negotionable rules and b) low carb. Caloric restriction because I am below my TDEE and I could easily (and want to) raise my caloric intake by upping the butter and cream amount. But I am scared, so I don't.
Hey, thanks for checking in :)
Yea, definitely interested in the results. Even if it's only vaguely working or not working. After all I'm trying to figure out what makes it work - so if I only hear from people where it's a huge success, that doesn't help much, either ;)
Can you just email me at hello@exfatloss.com and then I'll come up with some specific questions (I still haven't fully decided what factors are even important, lol). Thanks!
I would love to do this. Cream tastes fucking amazing. That said I have lactose intolerance (possibly casein too).
So, not having any dairy intolerance, does that mean you're able to eat some cream but not a lot? Or does even a bit give you issues?
If more than a small amount of cream gives you any issues, I'd advise against doing ex150 as is. You could substitute coconut milk instead if you just want to try it. Let me know if you're doing it, as I'd be very interested to see if that works, even if it's not "officially" part of the trial.
I haven't tried recently. I could try though! Anyone else in the comments have this issue and care to chime in so I don't have to risk breaking out in acne?
Coconut anything (including milk) is even worse, sadly.
I do wonder about people advocating slow adding back of milk to build tolerance. Eg. Josh Rainer Gold (see bottom of this page)—it's paywalled and I haven't bought it but it does make me wonder: https://www.patreon.com/joshraingergold "YOU CAN STILL HAVE RAW MILK EVEN IF YOU'RE "LACTOSE INTOLERANT"" https://twitter.com/JoshRainerGold/status/1457079312348106752
Huh, very interesting. Sounds like you should try raw milk? I've actually tried looking around for raw cream, but have been told it basically doesn't exist: cream is basically a byproduct of skim milk production, and nobody who buys raw milk wants it skim :D So they'd have to pour out half the product in order to make the cream.
I don't know if cream has enough lactose or casein to trigger your issues. It's certainly lower than milk, especially by calories, but I'm still consuming a pint per day or more, so it might add up.
You could always try to slowly ramp up and see if there's any problems. If no problems, could try ex150. If problems, find another saturated fat source. If coconut doesn't work either, I can think of cocoa butter, beef fat trimmings/suet, just plain butter (should be even lower in lactose/casein than cream?). Unfortunately, these are all pretty much as hardcore or more than ex150, you'd be eating basically braised beef fat :) Although it's so calorie dense you wouldn't need to eat much, as 100g already have over 1,000kcal.
I want fully reliable fat loss for the summertime (which we discussed before my method). But I'll keep this parked for later! Eagerly watching the results.
I also do plan to figure this out as I would love to eat cream and raw milk before too long. Once I hit the weight loss goals though I can test some of these fat sources if not just raw milk itself
Hey,who has signed up? I'm on day 1 :)
Haha I should get around to creating that community Slack.. there are currently 5 people who've already started, including you :)
I coupd do this but I won't be able to start until a month from now
No problem, just hit me up when you're ready! We can always add +1 later since it's asynchronous anyway.
Ex, do you have a specific issue with sweeteners in drinks, as that is mentioned as a parameter of the trail? I have been doing Ex150 but also drinking flavored waters with aspartame in them and have not noticed any issues regarding weight gain or appetite increase. Is there something I should know about regarding a sweetener like aspartame (or sucralose, allulose, etc)?
I'm not entirely sure. For a few months in the beginning of doing this, I actually drank 1-2 energy drinks w/ monk fruit religiously every day. And I did lose a ton of weight, and I didn't get any satiety issues.
But I noticed that if I added monk fruit-sweetened magnesium powder to my cream, it absolutely killed my satiety - I simply wouldn't get any satiety ever. And that was despite the sweetness actually making the cream kind of disgusting, it was much too sweet.
So I'd say: be careful, but it seems to be able to still work. Maybe don't mix sweeteners with real meals, since "lack of satiety" for essentially water is fine, but for food is not?
PS: I replied to your email, in case you haven't seen it. Thanks again for the data!
Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make sure you didn't have a "PUFA-like" theory for artificial sweeteners that could cause an issue regarding weight.
I actually tried going without the aspartame drinks for 2 weeks to try and get my hunger under control but it seemed to make it worse so I started drinking them again. I feel like I'm in a good place now and the hunger hasn't been an issue for about a week with my current version of Ex150.
Thanks for the heads-up about your reply email; it was in the spam folder so I never would have found it.
I want to try ex150 (am currently trying something like it), but I think I'd rather leave myself room to experiment, so I don't want to commit to a trial protocol, however I can let you know how it goes if you like.
Following your excellent example I have tentatively set up a substack to record observations.
https://theheartattackdiet.substack.com/
Cool, I'll check it out!
Please do report your findings, even if only ex150-adjacent I think all data points/anecdotes are helpful at this point.
I'd be keen to try, but I'm British, and I don't think we have heavy cream. You can get double cream or extra-thick double cream, which are both about 55% fat and made of pure milk. Will they do?
Also do I have to whip it? That sounds like a pain and I'm quite happy eating them out of the pot with a spoon!
what he calls heavy cream is whipping cream in the UK. double cream is higher fat than what he is using.
I’m an American living in UK. Our heavy cream at home is between single and double cream here in fat content but the thickness is most similar to double cream.
I see. In that case, I'd still recommend whipping it. Just in case there's a difference in drinking cream vs. eating whipped cream. I had imagined it more like yogurt/sour cream consistency.
So the thing is, the heavy cream here is liquid, so you'd have to whip it. My understanding is, yours is practically solid? If you CAN eat it with a spoon straight from the pot, that would work. Our cream you could drink, but not eat with a spoon ;)
I hope this works out for you, though I don't meet your criteria. I wrote my summary on an earlier post, but I have been following your diet for almost a month, and am only about 6 pounds above my target weight.
I started the year at 210, hoping to get down to 190. A fairly conventional Keto diet got me the first 10 pounds, but stalled. I spent a couple of months at right around 200 , feeling like nothing could drop my weight any farther. Switching out some of the meat and eggs for cream dropped my weight by about another 5 pounds before stabilizing. I feel good, fully satisfied, with the least amount of joint pain I have had in years, but I am starting to wonder:
-What will it take to get that last 5 or 6 pounds, or when I get there will I want another 5?
-Is this really a good long-term maintenance diet, with the protein so low?
-Can I adapt this to the schedule of real life, with family and company events?
Hey :) Glad it's working pretty good for you, even if though you're already very close to your goal weight. When you stop the diet either due to a) reaching your GW or b) it ceasing to bring you any closer, could you send me your weight data (or any related data you have)? Would be very interesting. The more data I have of people the more I can try and figure out "ok this works for everyone/nobody/people who wear blue sockts."
Regarding your questions, I'm just guessing but here would be my guesses:
- You might be so close to your goal weight that "metabolism-normalizing diets" don't get you any more. You might have to resort to classic bodybuilder-style starving yourself. ex150 is way more ketogenic than most common internet keto diets, very close to the therapeutic ketogenic diet. But that might only buy you those 5lbs if you're already close.
- No. The protein is quite low, you'll lack essential micro nutrients. I don't have an exact plan yet, but I vaguely plan to up protein either a little bit over time, or kind of pulse it on/off for a few weeks at a time, once I hit my goal weight. Especially if you exercise you'll need more protein.
- I became very good at adapting regular keto, so this is just a little step extra from that. But I suspect that as you "normalize" the diet into a maintenance diet, it'll be less awkward anyway: now you can maybe eat the whole steak, so nobody at work is wondering why you're weird.
I am glad that I stumbled on your interview with Slime Mold Time Mold, though I also ended up encountering you through the Fire in a Bottle community that I also follow. Here are some of the things that I have gotten out of this ~ 1 month period:
- I am the lightest that I have been in about 5 years, and the food is both good and satisfying. I picked the target of 190, since that was what I weighed the last time that I felt healthy and fit, 7 years ago. I have to keep reminding myself that the weight itself is not the goal, but the healthy feeling.
- I had tried both high protein and high fat Keto before. The high protein left me with cravings that I couldn't satisfy, and the high fat left me nauseous. This diet did not do either of those things. I love that I can work-put right after dinner instead of waiting to feel less bloated.
- I added dill pickles to your official recommendation for two reasons. First, I was getting some pretty severe muscle cramps, and the salt and vinegar helps. Second, I missed eating things that crunch.
- I plan to slowly ramp up the protein, but I think that I will keep the overall levels lower than I did in the past. I had always learned that protein was the most important nutrient, especially if I wanted to maintain any muscle into middle age. Now, I am thinking that it may be oversold. One of my favorite books on fitness, "Body by Science" talks about how we have over emphasized dietary protein. Maybe I should have listened.
Haha who knew the vegans were right about something, amirite? :)
Great that it's working so well for you. Yea, the convenience/comfort factor of never being "full" or bloated is surprisingly cool. I REALLY missed that when I went off the diet between trials. I had never realized how uncomfortable that really made me. Now I just stop thinking about eating the second I'm done. No waiting around for digestion, just like you say.
The crunchy thing is interesting, my meal is actually very crunchy in texture because I sear my ground beef to a crisp. Plus, I dry age it in the fridge for 2-3 days. So maybe adding dill pickles is an interesting psychological/texture addition for people that like their meat less charred? Another point for accidentally doing the right thing, lol.
I have yet to read Body by Science, but it's on my list. As I get older I am moving away from "Ra ra let's squat and deadlift!" and more to "ok, what's the least amount of effort I can put in to get stronger and healthier?" and that's what that book seems to be all about.
One question: when you did high fat keto before, what exactly were you doing? Because I also always got nauseous even eating 2 ribeyes, all that hot beef fat just wouldn't agree with me. I even put steaks in the fridge because they seemed to agree better when cold, lol. (And were still pretty tasty.)
I was eating mostly ground beef that was around 73% lean, and couldn't handle all of the liquid fat. I would try cooking eggs or vegetables with it to try and soak it up, but it never fully worked. I would read online accounts from people who they would drink it like broth. Meanwhile, I was pulling over while driving because it would not stay down.
With Body by Science, I have found that the progress is slower than it was with barbells and the power rack in my basement, but I don't keep getting derailed by injuries. I have had joint problems since I was a kid, and barbell programs always started out with strength improvements and optimism, then an injury would sideline me for a few months. By the time I was recovered, I was starting over with those same lifts. But with slow, controlled lifts to failure I don't have all of those setbacks. And it is very time efficient.
Yea the injury thing really got big in my 30s. One bad rep at benching and the elbow is tweaked for 6 months. Great. Squats I never dared go all out due to knees feeling weird.
I had the exact same experience with the liquid fat. One of the reasons I use vegetables at all on this diet. I basically think there's no nutrition reason, but it's so much tastier with some greens and sauce to soak up the beef fat..