when Kempner's patients ate to satiety their goal was not weight loss, those people were doing the protocol for stopping their high blood pressure
Those whom wanted to lose weight had strict volume amounts. I believe it was one cup of rice per sitting (don't quote me).
It is amazing that you can eat that much rice! Wow.
Satiety is the issue I am 'reprogramming' right now. Since I am overweight, that 'signal' mechanism is not dialed in at this time. In the past, I did 30 days of one meal a day. After a number of hours, I would start to 'feel' hungry. Then my stomach actually growled. I ignored these signals, and observed my body. That 'feeling' of hunger as well as the growls would go away after a number of hours.
I have to forcefully not follow the satiety signalling, starting today. I respect your willingness to do these experiments, so there is no excuse for me.
I don't like that guy. Just seems like a dick, and none of his solutions that I've seen (e.g. fasting/salt) have worked for me in the past. But if you like getting yelled at haha..
Basic training in all the armies of the world. People voluntarily put themselves through the “Humiliation ritual“ that is in that initiation program.
I myself intentionally went through basic training, and fortunately it helped me, so that I would not be so “irritating“ to other people. It worked, I recognized it was necessary to reduce my intentional adversarial presentation.
Walter Kempner is the typical dad figure, that is, so much in literature. Doesn’t approve of anything, uses his testosterone and yells a lot.
Being yelled at does not always mean the recipient is the submissive . Myself, I simply learned new ways to creatively do what want to do, by following the rules.
"I was easily eating 4,500-5,500kcal/day and wasn’t particularly satiated."
This makes no sense to me! I'm doing HCLF right now (after a long time of LCHF) and I'm tracking everything and I am finding it hard to break 2.2.k without forcing myself to eat more.
Even 4.5k of rice/fruit/honey.... seems like just physically a ton. I believe you, but how on earth can you still be hungry after that?
Haha I'm not sure. But I was eating a lot of fruit salad + honey in the morning, and THEN I ate ~3,300kcal in rice the rest of the day. This lasted for several day until I felt terrible and had gained a bunch of weight haha.
For one, I don't think these drugs are particularly impressive. I lost more, more quickly, with no lean mass lost, and no side effects.
I think that I'm at the point where the "free 20lbs magic" is over, and any weight loss from these drugs would likely come with extensive lean mass loss since it's basically just starvation.
The question is, WHY is hunger an issue? GLP-1s just gloss over that question and allow you to starve yourself, which I think is counter productive.
I totally believe you felt terrible and gained weight! The part I don't get is not feeling satiety. But are you eating sugar during the day as “ad lib” like “oh I get that fuzzy hungry feeling that tells me I’ve run out of sugar, so I eat more” or just aiming for a set amount to consume? Because if you ate 3.3k of rice later, that’s 1.2 to 2.2k of fruit and honey! That seems like physically a huge amount and I don’t know anyone could be hungry after that?
So it's slightly complicated as I changed it over time.
1. The first week or so, I basically did ad-lib fruit/sugar/honey, like on the Honey Diet, and also rice. This was very bad, never got satiety. I quickly ate 3,300kcal just in rice PLUS the sugar/fruit/honey!
2. So I did a little over a week just rice + marinara + 150g bison. That was pretty much just like my rice+marinara trial.
3. After about 2-3 weeks I started getting extra hungry in the evening, and I started eating 2 extra cups of rice, which is about another 1,000kcal. Around this time I also started adding some sugar back into the diet, although I haven't kept much around the house. I can't really tell if I was just craving sugar because I was now somehow requiring 2 extra cups of rice a day, and the sugar was just a quick fix to fill that hole? Or if eating the sugar then made me extra hungry on top? The 2 extra cups of rice definitely started before reintroducing the sugar.
"Physical amounts" have never prevented me from being hungry. Pretty much my entire life, I've only stopped eating because of physical pain or because I was out of food. Cement-truck satiety w/ cream was mind blowing to me; I'd never experienced satiety before, I realized, just bloat.
On just rice it's not cement truck satiety, but it's... ok. There's bloat/physical fullness and there's a sense of satiety, but not like with cream. And maybe just adding the bison is enough to ruin it? Might be too high in protein :( Certainly the sugar doesn't work haha.
Just have to add this in - yesterday I did a higher-than usual for my recent protocol, about 2300 kcal day, including meat for the first time in a week or two. My final meal was a whole cantaloupe with sugar drizzled over it. For the first time in a long time, I hit "cement truck" satiety, where I could not stomach eating the last 5 chunks of cantaloupe. I picked up and put down the fork a couple of times, and then scooped the remains into the trash can.
tbh i can probably count the amount of times I've not cleaned my plate since being a teenager on one hand - two this year!
Huh! I don't mean to derail the meat-searing discussion, but that's really interesting... it just seems so foreign to my experience (and I guess what I think other people describe?). I am trying to revise my past experiences as "is it possible I was only telling myself I was full?" Is it possible you have some weird .... uh...satiety-processing deficiency? Does the perception of hungry or satiety even .... affect weight or fat accumulation at all?
Update: Day 1 of not listening to "my inner voice" specifically satiation.
Reason: When I listen to that 'feeling' that I an not full, that I must eat more, I then eat more until my stomach is very full. My intent was to utterly refuse more food. Like that Monty Python skit "one more bite".
I now propose that this inner 'feeling' is the cause of me being overweight - not the food. I have tried every type of eating. Fasting, (17, 12, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7 days), carnivore, keto, vegetarian, vegan, and now raw foodism. Through all of these I gained, or kept a higher weight than what I desired. The 'feeling' that I was hungry is the common theme through all my years of being overweight and trying many eating variations. I now conclude that the 'feeling' is wrong, and I no longer want to listen to that urge. I now will dismantle the feeling, and the response, systemically. I will face the feeling directly, not be an addict, not compulsively get my 'fix' when that urge comes up. I will learn to be fine with hours of not eating, with that 'stomach grumble' with that 'ruge', and NOT do anything regarding food. I will not believe food is bad, nor will I stop eating, nor will I 'starve.' Well balanced food, the will nourish my body, every day.
I am not suggesting this approach for all people. My digestion is excellent, my bowel movements are great. I have no chronic conditions. I am able to buy organic foods, and drink clean water (distilled). I can recognize outlier physical distress signals, and treat accordingly (usually with oxidisers like ozone, chlorine dioxide or hydrogen dioxide). I am fit, can move heavy weight, and even run for a bit.
My take:
Satiation is not a correct signal for anyone whom is overweight.
Remove any chemicals which may increase the satiation signalling (ie make one more 'hungry)
Remove chemicals from near our bodies (skin care, hair, teeth, clothing, bedding, non-stick pans)
Remove all processed foods .. All
Add sun exposure without sun glasses and without sun screen
Add sun time walking
Add grounding
Add a variety of foods that are not processed, I choose all plants, if you choose meat make sure it is direct from farm, and you do the processing with your own hands and knives
Add explosive movements, I do sprinting
Add some heavy movements, I do leg squats
Add socializing around activities (I do badminton) or hobbies (substack!)
I have no desire to persuade any readers of this. This comment is meant for me to brainstorm and interact with all the other great thinkers here.
> I now conclude that the 'feeling' is wrong, and I no longer want to listen to that urge.
This is interesting. What you describe is pretty close to the "lipostat" theory of obesity. It posits that everything is fine, but the fat signal is somehow too high and thus signals hunger, and people eat too much food.
I think technically there could be several things wrong (maybe more) with a "lipostat" as recently outline by Slime Mold Time Mold:
1. Somebody/something has set the lipostat too high (maybe to 30% body fat instead of 20%?)
2. The lipostat is correctly set (say to 20% bf), but the sensor is wrong and thinks you're only at 5% bf
3. The lipostat is correctly set and the sensor is right, but the signal is coming out too strong, or the actor listening to the signal is overinterpreting it.
Maybe there are more possibilities of what could go wrong.
I personally tend not to believe in this hypothesis, I think it's a fuel partitioning issue. In the fuel partitioning paradigm, the signal is correct - you are, on a biochemical level, starving.
How can you be starving if you eat "enough?" This could happen if e.g. a % of all the food substrate you've eaten gets preferentially deposited into your adipose tissue. If you eat 3,000kcal, maybe 1/3 of that gets put into body fat and thus your body only has access to burn 2,000kcal. It therefore signals that you're still hungry, cause 2,000 is not enough.
I don't know for sure, but I think it's interesting to think about these.
I empathize with your feeling of always being hungry. I had that my entire life until I discovered the cream diet. For the first time ever, I was satiated, not just "bloated" and "full." Life changing feeling! I hope you find a solution :)
I think it is possible that people whom gain weight and keep it (myself)
learned as children that eating brought pleasure AND some sense of comfort. (shades of german new medicine here).
I know that as a child, we moved to a new house, and there was no food during moving day. A simple oversight on my parents part. I, as a 10 month old, was found with a scrap of dry bread and I would not give it up. My parents had to bribe me with other real food to trade.
When I was in grade 8, there was events at home and school, and I was the latckey kid. [Note, I write this NOT to bring any sympathy to myself, simply to structure how the overeating 'hungry' signaling may have occurred. I found that food was a great pleasure, and I ate for comfort, not for fuel.
I wrote that in the past, I was able to eat once a day, and the hunger signal of mental and physical messaging was observed, and receded.
I am saying that a person (in my case, me) can set their hunger signal higher, for a variety of reasons NOT related to nutrient content.
Now, my main focus is NOT believing I must eat to satiation. I plan my food to have variety, and bulk. Once done, I am done for the evening.
Sorry - another question. you say "I’m hoping the reduction in adipose linoleic acid is worth it". If you are estimating that you have gained at least 10lbs of fat, why do you think that you will have lost any adipose linoleic acid? Wouldn't you have needed to lose some absolute fat? Is the assumption that you will have lost unsaturated fat and gained saturated fat?
The fat in your fat cells is always in flux, even if you're weight stable. It enters the bloodstream and then gets re-esterified.
The idea is that super-low-fat diets are essential acid deficient (EFAD) because they are so low in overall fat that all the essential linoleic acid that comes out of adipose will be used up for these essential fatty acid roles. E.g. Cell membranes.
Since I'm not eating any linoleic acid, the fat stored will mostly come from de-novo-lipogenesis (DNL), which likes to produce palmitic, oleic, and a few others.
So, yes, the assumption (or hope) is that I'll have lost PUFA and gained MUFA/SFA.
Yea something is def making me more hungry. Could be the excess protein, which is even higher on this due to the bison than my pure rice diet. Or carbs/insulin. Or sugar? But I got hungrier even without eating sugar.
If someone didn’t know the full context of what you have been doing over months/ years they might think that you don’t need an experiment to find that if you eat more - like 5500 calories a day - you gain fat.
I take your point. Still if it was obvious that what I was doing was causing me to gain like 20lbs of fat I don't think I could let myself continue to eat so much. I'd cope with the hunger.
For one, that sounds like you've never experienced this phenomenon. There is no choice.
Second, in this particular case I don't have crazy hyperphagia like on the SAD or high protein, but I'm hoping it's worth the trade off. Deplete my LA faster, gain 20lbs. Then hopefully lose the 20lbs again with ex150 lol.
20lbs isn't much for me, I used to fluctuate 20-30lbs doing nothing on the SAD and Standard American Keto.
True I don't think I've never experienced this phenomenon of uncontrollable hunger. It will be interesting to see what this has done to your LA - are you planning an Omega Quant (?) test. I hope it has been worth it.
when Kempner's patients ate to satiety their goal was not weight loss, those people were doing the protocol for stopping their high blood pressure
Those whom wanted to lose weight had strict volume amounts. I believe it was one cup of rice per sitting (don't quote me).
It is amazing that you can eat that much rice! Wow.
Satiety is the issue I am 'reprogramming' right now. Since I am overweight, that 'signal' mechanism is not dialed in at this time. In the past, I did 30 days of one meal a day. After a number of hours, I would start to 'feel' hungry. Then my stomach actually growled. I ignored these signals, and observed my body. That 'feeling' of hunger as well as the growls would go away after a number of hours.
I have to forcefully not follow the satiety signalling, starting today. I respect your willingness to do these experiments, so there is no excuse for me.
Here is a guy who trains others, who has done all the diets to the extreme, and shows his clients how to lose weight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfwDJ5B0QSQ
I don't like that guy. Just seems like a dick, and none of his solutions that I've seen (e.g. fasting/salt) have worked for me in the past. But if you like getting yelled at haha..
Basic training in all the armies of the world. People voluntarily put themselves through the “Humiliation ritual“ that is in that initiation program.
I myself intentionally went through basic training, and fortunately it helped me, so that I would not be so “irritating“ to other people. It worked, I recognized it was necessary to reduce my intentional adversarial presentation.
Walter Kempner is the typical dad figure, that is, so much in literature. Doesn’t approve of anything, uses his testosterone and yells a lot.
Being yelled at does not always mean the recipient is the submissive . Myself, I simply learned new ways to creatively do what want to do, by following the rules.
"I was easily eating 4,500-5,500kcal/day and wasn’t particularly satiated."
This makes no sense to me! I'm doing HCLF right now (after a long time of LCHF) and I'm tracking everything and I am finding it hard to break 2.2.k without forcing myself to eat more.
Even 4.5k of rice/fruit/honey.... seems like just physically a ton. I believe you, but how on earth can you still be hungry after that?
Haha I'm not sure. But I was eating a lot of fruit salad + honey in the morning, and THEN I ate ~3,300kcal in rice the rest of the day. This lasted for several day until I felt terrible and had gained a bunch of weight haha.
have you though about experimenting with ozempic or something like it? Hunger seems to be the issue for you?
No, I've previously written about my reasoning:
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/the-totally-speculative-reason-i
For one, I don't think these drugs are particularly impressive. I lost more, more quickly, with no lean mass lost, and no side effects.
I think that I'm at the point where the "free 20lbs magic" is over, and any weight loss from these drugs would likely come with extensive lean mass loss since it's basically just starvation.
The question is, WHY is hunger an issue? GLP-1s just gloss over that question and allow you to starve yourself, which I think is counter productive.
I totally believe you felt terrible and gained weight! The part I don't get is not feeling satiety. But are you eating sugar during the day as “ad lib” like “oh I get that fuzzy hungry feeling that tells me I’ve run out of sugar, so I eat more” or just aiming for a set amount to consume? Because if you ate 3.3k of rice later, that’s 1.2 to 2.2k of fruit and honey! That seems like physically a huge amount and I don’t know anyone could be hungry after that?
So it's slightly complicated as I changed it over time.
1. The first week or so, I basically did ad-lib fruit/sugar/honey, like on the Honey Diet, and also rice. This was very bad, never got satiety. I quickly ate 3,300kcal just in rice PLUS the sugar/fruit/honey!
2. So I did a little over a week just rice + marinara + 150g bison. That was pretty much just like my rice+marinara trial.
3. After about 2-3 weeks I started getting extra hungry in the evening, and I started eating 2 extra cups of rice, which is about another 1,000kcal. Around this time I also started adding some sugar back into the diet, although I haven't kept much around the house. I can't really tell if I was just craving sugar because I was now somehow requiring 2 extra cups of rice a day, and the sugar was just a quick fix to fill that hole? Or if eating the sugar then made me extra hungry on top? The 2 extra cups of rice definitely started before reintroducing the sugar.
"Physical amounts" have never prevented me from being hungry. Pretty much my entire life, I've only stopped eating because of physical pain or because I was out of food. Cement-truck satiety w/ cream was mind blowing to me; I'd never experienced satiety before, I realized, just bloat.
On just rice it's not cement truck satiety, but it's... ok. There's bloat/physical fullness and there's a sense of satiety, but not like with cream. And maybe just adding the bison is enough to ruin it? Might be too high in protein :( Certainly the sugar doesn't work haha.
Just have to add this in - yesterday I did a higher-than usual for my recent protocol, about 2300 kcal day, including meat for the first time in a week or two. My final meal was a whole cantaloupe with sugar drizzled over it. For the first time in a long time, I hit "cement truck" satiety, where I could not stomach eating the last 5 chunks of cantaloupe. I picked up and put down the fork a couple of times, and then scooped the remains into the trash can.
tbh i can probably count the amount of times I've not cleaned my plate since being a teenager on one hand - two this year!
Haha yea it's an amazing feeling, isn't it :) And when you realize that's probably how it's supposed to feel all the time..
Huh! I don't mean to derail the meat-searing discussion, but that's really interesting... it just seems so foreign to my experience (and I guess what I think other people describe?). I am trying to revise my past experiences as "is it possible I was only telling myself I was full?" Is it possible you have some weird .... uh...satiety-processing deficiency? Does the perception of hungry or satiety even .... affect weight or fat accumulation at all?
I think it's extremely normal. It's pretty much the default state in the west, I'd say?
I mean, you were "full" - that just has nothing to do with "satiated."
Obviously this is society wide, as we have what, 75% overweight and 45% obesity?
Would you look at those numbers and think "Huh, I think these people have excellent satiety & hunger signaling, nothing to see here" :)
yeah, absolutely, I guess I just didn't appreciate the extremity of it. Are you still thinking that PUFA is what's messing up that signal?
Update: Day 1 of not listening to "my inner voice" specifically satiation.
Reason: When I listen to that 'feeling' that I an not full, that I must eat more, I then eat more until my stomach is very full. My intent was to utterly refuse more food. Like that Monty Python skit "one more bite".
I now propose that this inner 'feeling' is the cause of me being overweight - not the food. I have tried every type of eating. Fasting, (17, 12, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7 days), carnivore, keto, vegetarian, vegan, and now raw foodism. Through all of these I gained, or kept a higher weight than what I desired. The 'feeling' that I was hungry is the common theme through all my years of being overweight and trying many eating variations. I now conclude that the 'feeling' is wrong, and I no longer want to listen to that urge. I now will dismantle the feeling, and the response, systemically. I will face the feeling directly, not be an addict, not compulsively get my 'fix' when that urge comes up. I will learn to be fine with hours of not eating, with that 'stomach grumble' with that 'ruge', and NOT do anything regarding food. I will not believe food is bad, nor will I stop eating, nor will I 'starve.' Well balanced food, the will nourish my body, every day.
I am not suggesting this approach for all people. My digestion is excellent, my bowel movements are great. I have no chronic conditions. I am able to buy organic foods, and drink clean water (distilled). I can recognize outlier physical distress signals, and treat accordingly (usually with oxidisers like ozone, chlorine dioxide or hydrogen dioxide). I am fit, can move heavy weight, and even run for a bit.
My take:
Satiation is not a correct signal for anyone whom is overweight.
Remove any chemicals which may increase the satiation signalling (ie make one more 'hungry)
Remove excess radiation (wifi, cell phones, microwaves)
Remove chemicals from near our bodies (skin care, hair, teeth, clothing, bedding, non-stick pans)
Remove all processed foods .. All
Add sun exposure without sun glasses and without sun screen
Add sun time walking
Add grounding
Add a variety of foods that are not processed, I choose all plants, if you choose meat make sure it is direct from farm, and you do the processing with your own hands and knives
Add explosive movements, I do sprinting
Add some heavy movements, I do leg squats
Add socializing around activities (I do badminton) or hobbies (substack!)
I have no desire to persuade any readers of this. This comment is meant for me to brainstorm and interact with all the other great thinkers here.
> I now conclude that the 'feeling' is wrong, and I no longer want to listen to that urge.
This is interesting. What you describe is pretty close to the "lipostat" theory of obesity. It posits that everything is fine, but the fat signal is somehow too high and thus signals hunger, and people eat too much food.
I think technically there could be several things wrong (maybe more) with a "lipostat" as recently outline by Slime Mold Time Mold:
1. Somebody/something has set the lipostat too high (maybe to 30% body fat instead of 20%?)
2. The lipostat is correctly set (say to 20% bf), but the sensor is wrong and thinks you're only at 5% bf
3. The lipostat is correctly set and the sensor is right, but the signal is coming out too strong, or the actor listening to the signal is overinterpreting it.
Maybe there are more possibilities of what could go wrong.
I personally tend not to believe in this hypothesis, I think it's a fuel partitioning issue. In the fuel partitioning paradigm, the signal is correct - you are, on a biochemical level, starving.
How can you be starving if you eat "enough?" This could happen if e.g. a % of all the food substrate you've eaten gets preferentially deposited into your adipose tissue. If you eat 3,000kcal, maybe 1/3 of that gets put into body fat and thus your body only has access to burn 2,000kcal. It therefore signals that you're still hungry, cause 2,000 is not enough.
I don't know for sure, but I think it's interesting to think about these.
I empathize with your feeling of always being hungry. I had that my entire life until I discovered the cream diet. For the first time ever, I was satiated, not just "bloated" and "full." Life changing feeling! I hope you find a solution :)
To be more direct,
I think it is possible that people whom gain weight and keep it (myself)
learned as children that eating brought pleasure AND some sense of comfort. (shades of german new medicine here).
I know that as a child, we moved to a new house, and there was no food during moving day. A simple oversight on my parents part. I, as a 10 month old, was found with a scrap of dry bread and I would not give it up. My parents had to bribe me with other real food to trade.
When I was in grade 8, there was events at home and school, and I was the latckey kid. [Note, I write this NOT to bring any sympathy to myself, simply to structure how the overeating 'hungry' signaling may have occurred. I found that food was a great pleasure, and I ate for comfort, not for fuel.
I wrote that in the past, I was able to eat once a day, and the hunger signal of mental and physical messaging was observed, and receded.
I am saying that a person (in my case, me) can set their hunger signal higher, for a variety of reasons NOT related to nutrient content.
Now, my main focus is NOT believing I must eat to satiation. I plan my food to have variety, and bulk. Once done, I am done for the evening.
Sorry - another question. you say "I’m hoping the reduction in adipose linoleic acid is worth it". If you are estimating that you have gained at least 10lbs of fat, why do you think that you will have lost any adipose linoleic acid? Wouldn't you have needed to lose some absolute fat? Is the assumption that you will have lost unsaturated fat and gained saturated fat?
The fat in your fat cells is always in flux, even if you're weight stable. It enters the bloodstream and then gets re-esterified.
The idea is that super-low-fat diets are essential acid deficient (EFAD) because they are so low in overall fat that all the essential linoleic acid that comes out of adipose will be used up for these essential fatty acid roles. E.g. Cell membranes.
Since I'm not eating any linoleic acid, the fat stored will mostly come from de-novo-lipogenesis (DNL), which likes to produce palmitic, oleic, and a few others.
So, yes, the assumption (or hope) is that I'll have lost PUFA and gained MUFA/SFA.
5000 kcal/day? 240 lbs? you must be beastly and busy.
Nice.
Busy yes, beastly not so much
Interesting...waiting for the final tally.
"I was easily eating 4,500-5,500kcal/day and wasn’t particularly satiated."
I know you don’t subscribe to carolies…. CICO etc but when I went on to read that you had gained weight, mainly fat, I can’t say I was surprised.
It’s fascinating to read your experiments.
Yea something is def making me more hungry. Could be the excess protein, which is even higher on this due to the bison than my pure rice diet. Or carbs/insulin. Or sugar? But I got hungrier even without eating sugar.
If someone didn’t know the full context of what you have been doing over months/ years they might think that you don’t need an experiment to find that if you eat more - like 5500 calories a day - you gain fat.
Of course, that's why I think CICO is so silly. It's an accounting tautology.
The real question is, of course: why did I spontaneously start eating 5,500kcal/day instead of 3,300kcal?!
I take your point. Still if it was obvious that what I was doing was causing me to gain like 20lbs of fat I don't think I could let myself continue to eat so much. I'd cope with the hunger.
For one, that sounds like you've never experienced this phenomenon. There is no choice.
Second, in this particular case I don't have crazy hyperphagia like on the SAD or high protein, but I'm hoping it's worth the trade off. Deplete my LA faster, gain 20lbs. Then hopefully lose the 20lbs again with ex150 lol.
20lbs isn't much for me, I used to fluctuate 20-30lbs doing nothing on the SAD and Standard American Keto.
True I don't think I've never experienced this phenomenon of uncontrollable hunger. It will be interesting to see what this has done to your LA - are you planning an Omega Quant (?) test. I hope it has been worth it.