So the end result is, after all of your trial and error, it seems like these refeeds are completely unnecessary?
I wonder if this is more broadly true. For the past ≈9 months I've tried to hit the 1g/lb FitnessBro mark ever day. On average, I've only hit 0.75g/lb.
Your post makes me wonder if the recommendations are way too high and if the body is much more efficient at recycling protein than physicians and scientists believe.
One issue with the studies is, we don't even have a real way to measure this unless you do it for 6 months. As you can see on my DEXA history, even DEXA is noisy as heck to water/glycogen weight.
I've gained 4.4lbs of "lean mass" in just 24h just by upping my protein previously. I could probably do 15lbs if I really tried.
So how do we know if someone "lost lean mass" unless we let it run for like 6 months and it's way outside of that (5-15lbs?) range?
Regarding quantity & timing of protein intake, here's the latest newsletter from Dr. Michael Eades (Protein Power). That content starts at "Dietary Protein and Lean Body Mass."
Re the body maintaining adaptive levels of glycogen stores, I think this was my experience even when water fasting. I’m a runner and would still be able to run for around 3k at a slow pace (15-20mins) before bonking but my heart rate was elevated throughout, suggesting to me that it was still utilising more fat that normal to propel me. I think that matches what you’re seeing. You’re just running out more quickly and so with fuller stores you’re now superman. Makes me wonder what would happen to your weight if you upped glycogen and training.
I wonder, if you aren't losing muscle mass, do you actually need the refeeding to be so high as I understand we cannot store protein and converting excess protein to glucose is very inefficient for humans to do?
Professor Tim Noakes has recently been doing some experiments regarding carb loading. If I read the results correctly as long as you are fat adapted there is no advantage to carb loading. For extreme exercise (5+ hours), there is a benefit to a small amount of glucose (20g) taken during the exercise which is necessary for the brain, not the muscles.
Indeed, salmon does taste much better than sardines.
Probably don't need to, yea. I dunno at this point I'm kind of over the protein refeeds, but then I do love cheese so it's a bit of a "vent" planned "cheat day" outlet too..
Would be interesting if I can "sink" the carbs I eat into the muscle (glycogen) and if that doesn't kick me out of ketosis enough to mess with my sleep.. that's the primary reason I probably won't try it soon; muscle gain is just not a focus right now, and anything that messes with my sleep is a risky experiment haha.
So the end result is, after all of your trial and error, it seems like these refeeds are completely unnecessary?
I wonder if this is more broadly true. For the past ≈9 months I've tried to hit the 1g/lb FitnessBro mark ever day. On average, I've only hit 0.75g/lb.
Your post makes me wonder if the recommendations are way too high and if the body is much more efficient at recycling protein than physicians and scientists believe.
Ｆｅｅｌ Ｉ＇ｖｅ ｓｅｅｎ ｐｅｏｐｌｅ ａｃｔｕａｌｌｙ ｍｅａｓｕｒｅ ｔｈｅｉｒ ｌｅａｎ ｍａｓｓ ｂｅｆｏｒｅ， ａｎｄ ｒｅａｌｉｚｉｎｇ ｔｈａｔ ｔｈｅｙ ｗｅｒｅ ｌｏｓｉｎｇ ｍｕｓｃｌｅ ｗｈｅｎ ｎｏｔ ｅａｔｉｎｇ ｅｎｏｕｇｈ ｐｒｏｔｅｉｎ ｃｌｏｓｅｒ ｔｏ ａｒｕｎｄ ～１ｇ／ｌｂ， ｔｈｏｕｇｈ ｔｈｉｓ ｗａｓ ｉｎ ｉｎｄｉｖｉｕｄａｌ， ｌｅａｎ ｓｕｂｊｅｃｔｓ ｓｏ ｔｈａｔ ｍｉｇｈｔ ｂｅ ｗｈｙ？
Ｔｈｅｒｅ ｈａｖｅ ｔｏ ｂｅ ｓｏｍｅ ａｃｔｕａｌ ｓｔｕｄｉｅｓ ｏｕｔ ｔｈｅｒｅ．
One issue with the studies is, we don't even have a real way to measure this unless you do it for 6 months. As you can see on my DEXA history, even DEXA is noisy as heck to water/glycogen weight.
I've gained 4.4lbs of "lean mass" in just 24h just by upping my protein previously. I could probably do 15lbs if I really tried.
So how do we know if someone "lost lean mass" unless we let it run for like 6 months and it's way outside of that (5-15lbs?) range?
> it seems like these refeeds are completely unnecessary?
I.. think so?
Regarding quantity & timing of protein intake, here's the latest newsletter from Dr. Michael Eades (Protein Power). That content starts at "Dietary Protein and Lean Body Mass."
https://arrow.proteinpower.com/p/arrow-168?utm_source=arrow.proteinpower.com&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=the-arrow-168
Ha, interesting. Obviously I disagree with him on many things there.
Yea, obviously don't lose weight by cutting calories & chugging shakes with sunflower and canola oil (https://www.nestlehealthscience.ca/en/brands/optifast/optifast-900-hcp). If you do so, you'll lose lean mass and your metabolic rate will decrease.
Not a surprising read, but good read nonetheless, thanks. ^^
Re the body maintaining adaptive levels of glycogen stores, I think this was my experience even when water fasting. I’m a runner and would still be able to run for around 3k at a slow pace (15-20mins) before bonking but my heart rate was elevated throughout, suggesting to me that it was still utilising more fat that normal to propel me. I think that matches what you’re seeing. You’re just running out more quickly and so with fuller stores you’re now superman. Makes me wonder what would happen to your weight if you upped glycogen and training.
I'd likely gain 10lbs immediately, and gain way more muscle way more quickly :D
Water fasting is similar for me, I'd lose a lot of weight but then it'd come back very quickly.
Sounds like a good test :)
I'll do it when I get lean enough that muscle building becomes my priority haha
I wonder, if you aren't losing muscle mass, do you actually need the refeeding to be so high as I understand we cannot store protein and converting excess protein to glucose is very inefficient for humans to do?
Professor Tim Noakes has recently been doing some experiments regarding carb loading. If I read the results correctly as long as you are fat adapted there is no advantage to carb loading. For extreme exercise (5+ hours), there is a benefit to a small amount of glucose (20g) taken during the exercise which is necessary for the brain, not the muscles.
Indeed, salmon does taste much better than sardines.
Probably don't need to, yea. I dunno at this point I'm kind of over the protein refeeds, but then I do love cheese so it's a bit of a "vent" planned "cheat day" outlet too..
I do extreme exercise by that measure and you need much more than 20g carbs per hour to propel you
I suggest you read the research of professor Tim Noakes for a full explanation.
If you are fat adopted you can get all the energy you need from fat except for the 20 grams of carbs mentioned.
I’m not sure why you are doing the refeeds. If you note that a benefit to your training is that you had additional glycogen why not just eat carbs?
When I started, I wasn't sure I wouldn't die from this :)
People on Twitter are still telling me that what I'm doing is extremely dangerous.
But yea they do seem unnecessary now?
And the idea of eating carbs?
Would be interesting if I can "sink" the carbs I eat into the muscle (glycogen) and if that doesn't kick me out of ketosis enough to mess with my sleep.. that's the primary reason I probably won't try it soon; muscle gain is just not a focus right now, and anything that messes with my sleep is a risky experiment haha.
So your concern with ketosis is for sleep health not about fat loss?
Yep