I haven't. Lustig was also on the "it's fructose" train for a while, but it doesn't fit my personal experience well. I gained 100lbs doing pretty strict keto, eating almost zero fructose. Where does he suggest the uric acid is coming from?
The first part of the book gives details of many experiments done on mice and rats to show that fructose is the cause of obesity.
He posits this is because metabolism of the fructose causes stress on the mitocondria from the uric acid produced by metabolising the fructose.
This results in reduced ATP production and blocks the leptin pathway leaving you low energy and hungry so that you overeat.
His recommendation is fairly similar to a low carb diet except that your body can convert glucose into fructose if you are dehydrated, a condition he says all obese people are in. So he recommends salt is kept to 3 to 5 gm/day and 8 glasses of water/day including one with each meal. No alcohol as thats dehydrating but coffee is ok because that encourages excretion of uric acid.
He also reccommends intermittent fasting of 2 days of 500 kcal then 5 days normal eating.
In the final chapters he compares mediteranean, keto, paleo and low carb diets an recommends mediteranean. At this point he mentions red meat dangers, reducing saturated fat anf tufts university which I felt he's not up to date on those.
I hope this helps I've tried to summarise the book.
His theory is that if sufficient fructose hits the liver it throws the fat switch that lowers your metabolic rate and makes you ravenously hungry. Its a survival mechanism to gain fat before winter etc.
I think it's a good hypothesis but probably not the whole story. I don't think that it's just a single factor that leads to obesity and there are probably very large variations in fructose tolerance. The Uric Acid thing also makes me wonder if "too much" protein sends similar signals.
Yea definitely agree, this is my "slightly complicated" theory. If it was just 1 thing we would've probably found it by now. But could be that there are common metabolic pathways triggered/influenced by different intake items? E.g. NAD+, uric acid..
"Is anyone seriously arguing that dried & salted versions of the same foods are more obesogenic?" Well, yeah, though your heavy cream experiments strongly contradict the idea of caloric density by itself, the combination of calorically dense carbs and fats does seem to be problematic, the volumetrics guys suggested salads and the like; the P:E guy likes maxing protein intake, et cetera. I can eat way more calories in raisins than grapes, can't you?
Consider peanut butter. It is more calorically dense than honey. Yet if you mix them appropriately you can eat *way* more calories than of either alone. I did this, for science.
Macros, belike; sugar and fat. This is a pretty reliable recipe for weight gain; how bodybuilders do it, for example, with Get Big drinks (drinking calories is easier than eating them). Hey, texture point, good one.
Yea that's like the "western diet is fattening" argument. I'm just wondering: what exactly is it? The change in flavor? The change in texture? The biochemical effect of the different macros?
There seem tons of counter examples, too: the whole French paradox, for example, is based on refined, white flour and butter plus creamy sauces.
I kinda buy the economic arguments: food scientists are making food cheaper and more delicious - palatable - every year; why wouldn't the population fatten?
Yea, I think all of those ideas are pretty much nonsense. Full != satiety, that's so obvious it shouldn't have to be said. Otherwise, why not eat sawdust?
> I can eat way more calories in raisins than grapes, can't you?
Not sure how this matters unless the model of obesity complete ignores any sort of control dynamics which we know exist. The 'food can be eaten more of' thing is pretty easily disproved.
I think some people really do respond to gastric stretch receptors; 4 big salads a day really does work for, ah, some of them. Sawdust, maybe not; yuck.
If you wanted to max your caloric consumption, what would you eat and drink?
Caloric consumption of any kind? Not sure, and would depend on a lot of other factors. Drink heavy cream until I literally puke? I'm sure I could make myself somehow. eat butter? Chug soybean oil?
The 4 big salad crow thing I've never actually seen work. it works in the short term, a painfully bloated stomach makes you stop eating. But then your body just notes that you still don't have any more energy than before and you'll not get actual satiety in the long run, I think.
I suspect those for whom it "worked" were those who weren't metabolically broken to begin with, and for whom "eat slightly less" is reasonable advice.
I might be wrong and maybe some stop being obese like this, but those are my thoughts.
Have you read "Nature wants us to be fat" by Richard J Johnson?
It posits that a combination of fructose/uric acid is the driver of obesity with reasons for this.
You may also find videos of him on utube.
I haven't. Lustig was also on the "it's fructose" train for a while, but it doesn't fit my personal experience well. I gained 100lbs doing pretty strict keto, eating almost zero fructose. Where does he suggest the uric acid is coming from?
You can convert glucose to fructose in your body especially when dehydrated.
His book is worth a read. I'm nearly halfway through it.
He has a good explanation of why camels get fat without eating any fructose.
So even if you consume no fructose thats not a problem as you produce your own when conditions are met.
Could you tl;dr the actionable lever for me? I.e. what does he suggest obese people do to get lean?
tl;dr ?
too long, didn't read. Internet speak for summary.
The first part of the book gives details of many experiments done on mice and rats to show that fructose is the cause of obesity.
He posits this is because metabolism of the fructose causes stress on the mitocondria from the uric acid produced by metabolising the fructose.
This results in reduced ATP production and blocks the leptin pathway leaving you low energy and hungry so that you overeat.
His recommendation is fairly similar to a low carb diet except that your body can convert glucose into fructose if you are dehydrated, a condition he says all obese people are in. So he recommends salt is kept to 3 to 5 gm/day and 8 glasses of water/day including one with each meal. No alcohol as thats dehydrating but coffee is ok because that encourages excretion of uric acid.
He also reccommends intermittent fasting of 2 days of 500 kcal then 5 days normal eating.
In the final chapters he compares mediteranean, keto, paleo and low carb diets an recommends mediteranean. At this point he mentions red meat dangers, reducing saturated fat anf tufts university which I felt he's not up to date on those.
I hope this helps I've tried to summarise the book.
His theory is that if sufficient fructose hits the liver it throws the fat switch that lowers your metabolic rate and makes you ravenously hungry. Its a survival mechanism to gain fat before winter etc.
I think it's a good hypothesis but probably not the whole story. I don't think that it's just a single factor that leads to obesity and there are probably very large variations in fructose tolerance. The Uric Acid thing also makes me wonder if "too much" protein sends similar signals.
Yea definitely agree, this is my "slightly complicated" theory. If it was just 1 thing we would've probably found it by now. But could be that there are common metabolic pathways triggered/influenced by different intake items? E.g. NAD+, uric acid..
Have you checked your adrenols?
They can screw up your metabolism to make it difficult to lose weght.
What are those, thyroid? I did get that checked and last time it was fine, even slightly elevated once.
The normal check is your TSH and T4 levels.
FreeT4 is converted to freeT3 (the active form) in your body.
High cortisol can instead convert some of it to reverse T3 which is inactive and leaves you hypothyroid.
Free T3 is the important thing to check if you think your thyroid is not optimal.
Got some of those tested recently: https://exfatloss.substack.com/p/blood-panel-i-am-the-testosterone
TSH was a bit low, T3 and T4 were in range.
Optimum T3 is towards top of range.
T4 mid range.
TSH Not as important.
"Is anyone seriously arguing that dried & salted versions of the same foods are more obesogenic?" Well, yeah, though your heavy cream experiments strongly contradict the idea of caloric density by itself, the combination of calorically dense carbs and fats does seem to be problematic, the volumetrics guys suggested salads and the like; the P:E guy likes maxing protein intake, et cetera. I can eat way more calories in raisins than grapes, can't you?
Consider peanut butter. It is more calorically dense than honey. Yet if you mix them appropriately you can eat *way* more calories than of either alone. I did this, for science.
Ok, the mix thing is actually interesting. But is it mixing different flavors? Textures? Macros?
Macros, belike; sugar and fat. This is a pretty reliable recipe for weight gain; how bodybuilders do it, for example, with Get Big drinks (drinking calories is easier than eating them). Hey, texture point, good one.
Yea that's like the "western diet is fattening" argument. I'm just wondering: what exactly is it? The change in flavor? The change in texture? The biochemical effect of the different macros?
There seem tons of counter examples, too: the whole French paradox, for example, is based on refined, white flour and butter plus creamy sauces.
I kinda buy the economic arguments: food scientists are making food cheaper and more delicious - palatable - every year; why wouldn't the population fatten?
The historical mechanism for preventing obesity is poverty, you know?
Yea, I think all of those ideas are pretty much nonsense. Full != satiety, that's so obvious it shouldn't have to be said. Otherwise, why not eat sawdust?
> I can eat way more calories in raisins than grapes, can't you?
Not sure how this matters unless the model of obesity complete ignores any sort of control dynamics which we know exist. The 'food can be eaten more of' thing is pretty easily disproved.
I think some people really do respond to gastric stretch receptors; 4 big salads a day really does work for, ah, some of them. Sawdust, maybe not; yuck.
If you wanted to max your caloric consumption, what would you eat and drink?
Caloric consumption of any kind? Not sure, and would depend on a lot of other factors. Drink heavy cream until I literally puke? I'm sure I could make myself somehow. eat butter? Chug soybean oil?
The 4 big salad crow thing I've never actually seen work. it works in the short term, a painfully bloated stomach makes you stop eating. But then your body just notes that you still don't have any more energy than before and you'll not get actual satiety in the long run, I think.
I suspect those for whom it "worked" were those who weren't metabolically broken to begin with, and for whom "eat slightly less" is reasonable advice.
I might be wrong and maybe some stop being obese like this, but those are my thoughts.
Doesn't count if you puke, gotta keep it.
Good point, the four big salads guys was going from 34" to 28" waist, not obese to normal.