Nov 29, 2023·edited Nov 29, 2023Liked by Experimental Fat Loss
Don't for the love of God stop fucking around on my account! I think your adventures contain all sorts of clues. Although if you fuck around too much it does become rather difficult to extract the clues.
Fuck around carefully. Try occasional tiny variations.....
Although I do think that if you just stick with good old ex150 for a while that will also tell us something. But I am a bit worried that if you stick to ex150 for too long you might run out of obesity to do experiments on.....
Ha, that's why I originally started experimenting so much beginning of this year. Having dropped 45lbs in 3 months, I was quite sure to have abs by the summer ;)
If you do manage to get down to something reasonable, you could always try experimenting on trying to get fat again. There's just as much insight to be had there, I'm sure.
Fascinating experiment. You may have stumbled upon the mechanism behind how 19th-century middle-aged hungarian women managed to get fat a century before widespread PUFAs.
Nov 29, 2023·edited Nov 29, 2023Liked by Experimental Fat Loss
Yes, I've noticed that middle-aged women in old photos are often stout. Doesn't seem to be just the rich ones either. Another puzzle!
Did you see my post about Cesare Lombardo? He was trying to prove that obesity was a consequence of immorality in late Victorian women, and his (presumably cherry picked) sample of obese prostitutes has BMIs around 21, with the largest at 26. Which is really odd if there were loads of fat people floating around.
Do you happen to have any 19th century statistics? There don't seem to be many.
So BMI <20 in those days? Yes, I’m not surprised. I’m a middle aged woman w BMI 19.5, and still a lot of fat on me! I want to lose it bcz water retention
Nov 30, 2023·edited Nov 30, 2023Liked by Experimental Fat Loss
Well maybe, as I say statistics are really hard to find. No one cared about obesity until about 1970 it seems, which is pretty telling in itself. There are reports of cases going right back to classical times, but whenever someone encountered a previously uncontacted population and did the measurements, they do seem to have measured BMI averaging around 20 for both sexes.
I'm surprised by this, it seems far too low. I was BMI 20 as a undergraduate student, but I think I'd feel appallingly underweight there now. About 25 would probably be ok. I looked pretty good at 27.
All my family are tall and gangly, except me! But I don’t think I’m very thin. I still probably have the highest BMI in the family but also I still have about 20% fat and I still have more fat than I need on my legs which is out of proportion. It also does badly in the cold - cold shock damage to subcutaneous tissue.
Interestingly I’ve recently lost about 1St/14lb/6Kg by stopping eating dairy. Dairy for me doesn’t have a stop button, but it’s also a gateway drug to other food like chocolate, fruit, alcohol and sweeteners.
I suspect we are just used to people being larger. But those who actually have some muscles will weigh more!
I'm not gonna push you toward finding out. But, I did get an idea. You could break up the choc truffle every fourth day (or similar) with tomato cream soup, and see if that still leaves you feeling satiated while losing weight.
Keep at it, brother. I'm starting to trend downward after taking time off. I'm within striking distance of my goal, but I'm changing jobs next week and I expect it'll be a whole new chaos, diet-wise.
I have the same thing where - sour cream plus chili (which is a lot of tomatoes in) = huge craving. Read in a book a long while it has to do with endorphins, but in the case above when you mentioned salt, I thought - hmm tomatoes especially high in potassium. The ratio between potassium and sodium can be addicting. If you consider stuff like salty potatoe chips plus salsa, try it and see if the same Insatiability could be replicated
Post-note.
Tomatoes also have high glutamate (similar to msg, giving that Unami flavor).
Oh this is fascinating. Sour Cream->Hyperphagia, Double Cream->Satiety.
Why, for God's sake? It must be a clue.....
Could you just maybe try getting into a nice stable weight-losing state on ex150 for a couple of weeks and then maybe try one tiny pot of sour cream to see what happens?
Nov 30, 2023·edited Nov 30, 2023Liked by Experimental Fat Loss
Unsure is great! This should all look very hard. If it wasn't I'm sure it would have all been worked out years ago, by fad dieters if not by anyone else.
Really interesting! So, looking at contents of sour cream, creme fraiche and cream here in UK, sour cream nutrients are so variable as not to be able to make generalisations. Some are only about twice fat to carbs and protein varies too. I think some brands add back in skimmed milk powder that will increase carb and protein as well as decreasing satiety - I believe it’s well known that pigs are fattened on skimmed milk powder. Added skimmed milk powder is common in yoghurt too, to improve consistency and stop that effect where whey separates that anglophones don’t seem to like. Where else does the sugar come from in fermented cream?
I make creme fraiche in my kitchen from full fat (50%) cream, inoculated with milk kefir made with grains. I don’t eat it at the moment as I’m off dairy - satiety issues with cheese and inflammatory/MH concerns. Tho I agree cream in coffee can help in the morning, but seems to lead to weight gain overall and disregulation of satiety in the long term for me.
I don’t think there’s a difference in satiety with cream and my creme fraiche, so maybe it’s the processing issues, as ever.
I also suspect it’s very different results for someone with high fat reserves and lower. I’m about 20% fat, BMI <20 and high animal fat works well, with protein cravings sometimes, but I could live on airfried fatty beef offcuts indefinitely, at a cost of about £1 a kilo, alongside scrambled egg made with the rendered fat to emulsify. 😋
Yea you're probably right about the processing. I didn't know about the skim milk powder, that's definitely something they would do here, lol. They love eeking out every little bit of trash and byproducts they can smuggle into your "food"...
I'll test creme fraiche one day but it's not exactly common here, and I messed up enough for one week ... lol.
Nov 29, 2023·edited Nov 29, 2023Liked by Experimental Fat Loss
And also obligatory note that sour cream and double cream did seem to work pretty much the same for me. I ate more sour cream, but it's got fewer calories in it so that's expected. It's lovely and I look forward to it in a way I didn't look forward to double cream. That's probably telling me something.
Although post ex150ish-4-with-the-sour-cream I don't seem to be getting the usual period of 'weight loss for free'. It's just stable. On the other hand I am also fucking around a bit, trying to refute 'low protein matters'. More clues.
I'm not entirely sure what it means. Wiki tells me:
> Preppy (also spelled as preppie or prep) is an American subculture associated with the alumni of college-preparatory schools in the Northeastern United States.
So certainly it's an inaccurate description! I went to a comprehensive in the north of England. But I don't think it was intended as an insult, and I don't take it as one.
All my knowledge about England comes from Harry Potter and the video game Bully, which takes place in New England (close enough I figured). People wear sweater vests and stuff.
No chance of undereating for me , unless I start to get some major appetite suppression. I’m testing the boundary of how many calories I can get away with while low protein low carb. Didn’t lose yesterday but I think I had too much protein… The great thing about this WOE is that you dont rapidly regain. When I used to eat to satiety (I.e not suffering and feeling hungry and intermittent fasting ) it was rapid regain. Very happy about it 🤗
I haven't noticed any deficiency symptoms. I got a micronutrient test and was slightly low in some, but haven't noticed anything. Upon my doctor's recommendation I take vitamin D except in the summer, but that's probably just lack of sun, not diet. I also took a methylated B complex for a while, but just cause she recommended it, not because I noticed anything. Stopped now as I was out of measurement range high on folate, which I've read can be bad.
That’s reassuring that you haven’t noticed anything.
I did a high carb low fat low protein experiment and i swear it was making me go grey as I’ve not had any grey hair before on low carb for years. Then suddenly loads of them ! 😱 I was taking B12 too. It could have been a coincidence of course!
It was probably more to do with the high carb side of things then low protein then. Maybe missing something in all the bread, rice and potatoes (sad times. 😅)
This is all tooo interesting! Crazy how sensitive it all is. Just changing to sour cream! 🤯
Inspired by you- I am on the cream.
I gave up potatoes because for some reason - I could never seem to get past cravings. And I kept cheating with chocolate and cereal bars 😩
Before that I was on low carb, high fat, lowish protein but I was also going to the gym- and was quite low calorie - and couldn’t stop cheating then either.
So far - with cream - I’m having the best satiety for AGES! I’ve not had the overwhelming urges to cheat. I think that’s the difference- filling up on cream stops me from having terrible cravings and cheating with high carb stuff. I’ve been losing every day so far despite eating a tonne of calories!
Most astonishing was yesterday- it’s only the 3rd day - so I’m still quite hungry. I must have had more than 4000 calories - 2 tubs of heavy cream, a burger, 4 eggs and lashings of butter. This morning I lost 0.6 of a pound of fat according to scales! I definitely thought it would go up!
The cream is really helping me stick to low protein and low carb elements without cheating or terrible suffering.
I even had 3 carrots and still good!
This is the one- the holy grail 😄
I actually did have this experience in the past when I was trying a fat fast - I only ate cream and cream cheese and lost 10 pounds in about 10 days! 🤯 everyone on twitter was freaking out about the low protein then too 😄
I’ll keep you updated but I’ve got a good feeling about this! 🤗
I think the holy grail is not starving yourself :) If you're starved, your body will make you crave whatever you associate with "delicious food." In your case that might be cereal bars and chocolate. It used to be stuff like pizza for me, but over the 8 years of keto it slowly changed into meat. Now, when I fast, I crave steak. Funny how that works.
Congrats on the weight loss and let me know how it goes :) And don't forget to eat enough, it's easy to undereat on this diet.
I'd take a carb lens to both the soup and the sour cream. You break keto, you get insulin sloshing around in there and your body starts stacking glycogen back into muscles, no wonder you added weight and felt hungry! Then the soup means you're way out of keto. tomatoes are high fructose, they're kind of bad news.
That's mad! One question though: how did you drink enough water to put on that weight? 1 lb of water is (hand-wavingly) 0.45l, so doesn't that mean you had to drink 4.5l of water - about a (British) gallon - to gain that in water weight? Did I understand this right?
I've seen fat people gain weight just from looking at a neon Krispy Kreme sign in a gas station window - in Roald Dahl's words, like he was being inflated with a powerful pump (Roald Dahl either predicted or caused feederism and the inflation fetish - in this essay I will demonstrate [...]).
Really advanced hyperphagics absorb water from the atmosphere during the first 48 hours off a diet.
Don't for the love of God stop fucking around on my account! I think your adventures contain all sorts of clues. Although if you fuck around too much it does become rather difficult to extract the clues.
Fuck around carefully. Try occasional tiny variations.....
Although I do think that if you just stick with good old ex150 for a while that will also tell us something. But I am a bit worried that if you stick to ex150 for too long you might run out of obesity to do experiments on.....
Ha, that's why I originally started experimenting so much beginning of this year. Having dropped 45lbs in 3 months, I was quite sure to have abs by the summer ;)
> Fuck around carefully.
Sounds like my mom was right all along.
If you do manage to get down to something reasonable, you could always try experimenting on trying to get fat again. There's just as much insight to be had there, I'm sure.
Fascinating experiment. You may have stumbled upon the mechanism behind how 19th-century middle-aged hungarian women managed to get fat a century before widespread PUFAs.
Yes, I've noticed that middle-aged women in old photos are often stout. Doesn't seem to be just the rich ones either. Another puzzle!
Did you see my post about Cesare Lombardo? He was trying to prove that obesity was a consequence of immorality in late Victorian women, and his (presumably cherry picked) sample of obese prostitutes has BMIs around 21, with the largest at 26. Which is really odd if there were loads of fat people floating around.
Do you happen to have any 19th century statistics? There don't seem to be many.
So BMI <20 in those days? Yes, I’m not surprised. I’m a middle aged woman w BMI 19.5, and still a lot of fat on me! I want to lose it bcz water retention
Well maybe, as I say statistics are really hard to find. No one cared about obesity until about 1970 it seems, which is pretty telling in itself. There are reports of cases going right back to classical times, but whenever someone encountered a previously uncontacted population and did the measurements, they do seem to have measured BMI averaging around 20 for both sexes.
I'm surprised by this, it seems far too low. I was BMI 20 as a undergraduate student, but I think I'd feel appallingly underweight there now. About 25 would probably be ok. I looked pretty good at 27.
I feel and look pretty good at 30.8 :)
It's all relative..
All my family are tall and gangly, except me! But I don’t think I’m very thin. I still probably have the highest BMI in the family but also I still have about 20% fat and I still have more fat than I need on my legs which is out of proportion. It also does badly in the cold - cold shock damage to subcutaneous tissue.
Interestingly I’ve recently lost about 1St/14lb/6Kg by stopping eating dairy. Dairy for me doesn’t have a stop button, but it’s also a gateway drug to other food like chocolate, fruit, alcohol and sweeteners.
I suspect we are just used to people being larger. But those who actually have some muscles will weigh more!
I'm not gonna push you toward finding out. But, I did get an idea. You could break up the choc truffle every fourth day (or similar) with tomato cream soup, and see if that still leaves you feeling satiated while losing weight.
Keep at it, brother. I'm starting to trend downward after taking time off. I'm within striking distance of my goal, but I'm changing jobs next week and I expect it'll be a whole new chaos, diet-wise.
I have the same thing where - sour cream plus chili (which is a lot of tomatoes in) = huge craving. Read in a book a long while it has to do with endorphins, but in the case above when you mentioned salt, I thought - hmm tomatoes especially high in potassium. The ratio between potassium and sodium can be addicting. If you consider stuff like salty potatoe chips plus salsa, try it and see if the same Insatiability could be replicated
Post-note.
Tomatoes also have high glutamate (similar to msg, giving that Unami flavor).
Oh this is fascinating. Sour Cream->Hyperphagia, Double Cream->Satiety.
Why, for God's sake? It must be a clue.....
Could you just maybe try getting into a nice stable weight-losing state on ex150 for a couple of weeks and then maybe try one tiny pot of sour cream to see what happens?
Maybe... also haven't tried creme fraiche, which is apparently closer to heavy cream in macros.
Really not sure if it's the higher protein/sugar? Or something about the pudding-like texture? Or fermentation? Or all of the above? Sigh!
> creme fraiche
confirm that it tastes/seems about half way between sour cream and double cream
Unsure is great! This should all look very hard. If it wasn't I'm sure it would have all been worked out years ago, by fad dieters if not by anyone else.
Really interesting! So, looking at contents of sour cream, creme fraiche and cream here in UK, sour cream nutrients are so variable as not to be able to make generalisations. Some are only about twice fat to carbs and protein varies too. I think some brands add back in skimmed milk powder that will increase carb and protein as well as decreasing satiety - I believe it’s well known that pigs are fattened on skimmed milk powder. Added skimmed milk powder is common in yoghurt too, to improve consistency and stop that effect where whey separates that anglophones don’t seem to like. Where else does the sugar come from in fermented cream?
I make creme fraiche in my kitchen from full fat (50%) cream, inoculated with milk kefir made with grains. I don’t eat it at the moment as I’m off dairy - satiety issues with cheese and inflammatory/MH concerns. Tho I agree cream in coffee can help in the morning, but seems to lead to weight gain overall and disregulation of satiety in the long term for me.
I don’t think there’s a difference in satiety with cream and my creme fraiche, so maybe it’s the processing issues, as ever.
I also suspect it’s very different results for someone with high fat reserves and lower. I’m about 20% fat, BMI <20 and high animal fat works well, with protein cravings sometimes, but I could live on airfried fatty beef offcuts indefinitely, at a cost of about £1 a kilo, alongside scrambled egg made with the rendered fat to emulsify. 😋
Yea you're probably right about the processing. I didn't know about the skim milk powder, that's definitely something they would do here, lol. They love eeking out every little bit of trash and byproducts they can smuggle into your "food"...
I'll test creme fraiche one day but it's not exactly common here, and I messed up enough for one week ... lol.
And also obligatory note that sour cream and double cream did seem to work pretty much the same for me. I ate more sour cream, but it's got fewer calories in it so that's expected. It's lovely and I look forward to it in a way I didn't look forward to double cream. That's probably telling me something.
Although post ex150ish-4-with-the-sour-cream I don't seem to be getting the usual period of 'weight loss for free'. It's just stable. On the other hand I am also fucking around a bit, trying to refute 'low protein matters'. More clues.
Don't you object to being described as 'preppy'? I feel like we've had this conversation.
I'm not entirely sure what it means. Wiki tells me:
> Preppy (also spelled as preppie or prep) is an American subculture associated with the alumni of college-preparatory schools in the Northeastern United States.
So certainly it's an inaccurate description! I went to a comprehensive in the north of England. But I don't think it was intended as an insult, and I don't take it as one.
All my knowledge about England comes from Harry Potter and the video game Bully, which takes place in New England (close enough I figured). People wear sweater vests and stuff.
Also boat shoes, rowing or "crew" as I believe they call it, saying "I couldn't possibly"..
We call it rowing. I thought "crew" was an Americanism?
Aha, see, I didn't even know it was an Americanism.
Close enough for government work!
No chance of undereating for me , unless I start to get some major appetite suppression. I’m testing the boundary of how many calories I can get away with while low protein low carb. Didn’t lose yesterday but I think I had too much protein… The great thing about this WOE is that you dont rapidly regain. When I used to eat to satiety (I.e not suffering and feeling hungry and intermittent fasting ) it was rapid regain. Very happy about it 🤗
Yea agreed about the regain part. As long as I stay low enough protein, I apparently can't put on fat :) Very nice.
Also noticed my skin looking more glowy and plump.. could be the high vitamin A in cream..
Also wondered if you have noticed any deficiency symptoms over time?… any supplement I should be taking?.. thank you!
I haven't noticed any deficiency symptoms. I got a micronutrient test and was slightly low in some, but haven't noticed anything. Upon my doctor's recommendation I take vitamin D except in the summer, but that's probably just lack of sun, not diet. I also took a methylated B complex for a while, but just cause she recommended it, not because I noticed anything. Stopped now as I was out of measurement range high on folate, which I've read can be bad.
That’s reassuring that you haven’t noticed anything.
I did a high carb low fat low protein experiment and i swear it was making me go grey as I’ve not had any grey hair before on low carb for years. Then suddenly loads of them ! 😱 I was taking B12 too. It could have been a coincidence of course!
It was probably more to do with the high carb side of things then low protein then. Maybe missing something in all the bread, rice and potatoes (sad times. 😅)
Huh! I've heard of some people mentioning that, can't say I have myself. I have a few gray hairs here and there, but had before and still do.
😂 love your images 😂
This is all tooo interesting! Crazy how sensitive it all is. Just changing to sour cream! 🤯
Inspired by you- I am on the cream.
I gave up potatoes because for some reason - I could never seem to get past cravings. And I kept cheating with chocolate and cereal bars 😩
Before that I was on low carb, high fat, lowish protein but I was also going to the gym- and was quite low calorie - and couldn’t stop cheating then either.
So far - with cream - I’m having the best satiety for AGES! I’ve not had the overwhelming urges to cheat. I think that’s the difference- filling up on cream stops me from having terrible cravings and cheating with high carb stuff. I’ve been losing every day so far despite eating a tonne of calories!
Most astonishing was yesterday- it’s only the 3rd day - so I’m still quite hungry. I must have had more than 4000 calories - 2 tubs of heavy cream, a burger, 4 eggs and lashings of butter. This morning I lost 0.6 of a pound of fat according to scales! I definitely thought it would go up!
The cream is really helping me stick to low protein and low carb elements without cheating or terrible suffering.
I even had 3 carrots and still good!
This is the one- the holy grail 😄
I actually did have this experience in the past when I was trying a fat fast - I only ate cream and cream cheese and lost 10 pounds in about 10 days! 🤯 everyone on twitter was freaking out about the low protein then too 😄
I’ll keep you updated but I’ve got a good feeling about this! 🤗
I think the holy grail is not starving yourself :) If you're starved, your body will make you crave whatever you associate with "delicious food." In your case that might be cereal bars and chocolate. It used to be stuff like pizza for me, but over the 8 years of keto it slowly changed into meat. Now, when I fast, I crave steak. Funny how that works.
Congrats on the weight loss and let me know how it goes :) And don't forget to eat enough, it's easy to undereat on this diet.
I'd take a carb lens to both the soup and the sour cream. You break keto, you get insulin sloshing around in there and your body starts stacking glycogen back into muscles, no wonder you added weight and felt hungry! Then the soup means you're way out of keto. tomatoes are high fructose, they're kind of bad news.
Hm.. maybe? But 200g of tomato (the amount I was using per day for my soup) only seems to have about 8g of carbs: https://foods.exfatloss.com/food/170050?grams=200
And I've been eating about 80-100g of tomatoes in pasta sauce every other day for a year now without issues.
For sour cream I could believe the carb/macro lens more, yea.
have you looked into Seth Roberts Shangri-la diet?
he basically theorises that we can hack out brains reference point.
his trick is manipulating the taste/calorie conditioning. I'm too lazy to explain how whole system.
but your questions might be related
Yea I've read about it. I don't know too many people who used it successfully, but chatted with one guy who'd used it quite extensively for years.
That's mad! One question though: how did you drink enough water to put on that weight? 1 lb of water is (hand-wavingly) 0.45l, so doesn't that mean you had to drink 4.5l of water - about a (British) gallon - to gain that in water weight? Did I understand this right?
I've seen fat people gain weight just from looking at a neon Krispy Kreme sign in a gas station window - in Roald Dahl's words, like he was being inflated with a powerful pump (Roald Dahl either predicted or caused feederism and the inflation fetish - in this essay I will demonstrate [...]).
Really advanced hyperphagics absorb water from the atmosphere during the first 48 hours off a diet.
Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! Neon Krispy Kreme sigh!!!!
Like I said, I got very, very thirsty.
The salad was mostly water, too, because vegetables are largely fiber and water. Each salad was a huge bowl full of vegetables.
Salad = expensive crunchy water
You’ve proved salad is worse than that!
I did miss the crunch on my chocolate truffle diet, though. Need some crunch in the diet. For now it's the meat again :)
Bones 🦴 😬😋😆