> I decided to do a full “fat day” instead of making it a rice + fatty meat day, just because I assumed that it would be better in terms of swamping, rather than adding fatty beef on top of rice.
I wonder about this often. I'm usually on basically a HCLPLF diet (my wife is Asian, so this makes it easier to have shared meals than a keto diet), but sometimes I would like to have a fat day. Is separating the high-carb diet and the high-fat diet by one night's sleep enough for Randle cycle related problems? Would be nice to know.
I don't really know for sure. Bart Kay says no (not enough time). Anabology's honey diet is predicated on this working: he eats carbs in the morning/until lunch, fasts 4h (blood sugar comes down), then protein + fat for dinner. Then again, he was never obese AFAIK so maybe it's a case of "it works when you're metabolically healthy."
You mean equal? Cause I don't think "constant" (over time) would matter in terms of CICO.
Of course, I'd argue, this is just stating an observed fact - yes, my CI and CO were equal, we already knew that because I didn't lose any fat. That's like saying my bank account stayed the same cause no more dollars came in than went out. That's the definition of "stayed the same" :) It tells us nothing.
What is legal or customary in additives and agricultural practices. Emulsifiers are a new thing for me for example. The GRAS list in the EU is much smaller than the USA
"I guess it’s.. true? I decided to quit caffeine cold turkey. Very mild headache situation for 2 days. Totally fine after that, no issues.
I honestly don’t get what the big deal is."
Hahah, you're lucky you're not like me. My withdrawals from caffeine are intense, to the point of being disabled in some ways in the case of my psoas muscle radiating so much extreme pain I cannot jump or crouch and such without feeling like a 100 year old in poor health, haha. I get intense migraines is well and lethargy and depression etc. It's wild.
It usually takes ~2 weeks to feel mostly fine, but day ~3-11 are the worst for me.
I'm trying this as of today. I've been on keto / carnivore for 1.5 years. I've been curious about the "carbo" corner because of your theory that some people are diary adapted and some are whole grain adapted.
How come you're not worried about micronutrients? Beef is nutritious but I doubt rice is. I'll take a multivitamin, but I wonder what your take is on those in general.
I was only doing it for a month, and I estimated I'd have plenty of buffer of any micronutrients. You are right that a pure white rice diet will supposedly lead to micronutrient deficiency. I think it's called Beri Beri and pertains to B vitamins, which are e.g. in meat.
If I were to do the rice diet for months at a time (for whatever reason) I'd try to find a way and sneak beef in, or take some vitamins as well, probably.
Good luck! While the rice was pretty tolerable for me, it didn't exactly produce any weight loss, heh. Maybe you have more luck! Let me know how it goes :)
I'll be honest, the first time I read about your Non-24 condition, I looked at your self-reported epic caffeine consumption and went "gee, this doesn't seem all that mysterious." But I decided to good-faith assume that you'd already experimented and ruled out caffeine as a factor in the past. It's awesome that you were able to go on and off caffeine without world-wrecking side effects and most importantly, without the Non-24 coming back. Huge congratulations on (hopefully) officially defeating Non-24!
That said, I'm kind of surprised that in this experiment you didn't control for the caffeine using something like caffeine pills. Yeah, caffeine pills are no fun, but suddenly removing a lipolysis and energy expenditure enhancer that you've been taking in huge doses for years seems like it would irreparably confound your data. (Could also help explain the low temperatures too, since caffeine increases thermogenesis.)
Still, it's incredibly interesting to read about your experiences going from a pure-keto diet to a pure-carb diet. The glucose sensitivity and eerily similar caloric intake especially. And it's great to see another nail in the coffin of the "low-caloric-density" strategy.
Hope you enjoy the new possibilities you have now that you're free of Non-24!
> I'll be honest, the first time I read about your Non-24 condition, I looked at your self-reported epic caffeine consumption and went "gee, this doesn't seem all that mysterious."
Everybody does, lol. But I had this condition at age 3, and I didn't start drinking coffee until my late 20s ;)
I'm happy for you. What a relief to have apparently solved Non-24. Something in your physiology seems to have changed such that two extreme forms of dieting don't much affect it, either to evoke or eliminate. The PUFA theory is something to keep an eye on; in my case I had already cut 85% of them out of my diet two years before my Non-24 diagnosis, and so strict elimination is the only factor I can tinker with there.
Broscience fun speculation: There is a theory that Non-24 is a species adaptation to keep tribes alive. I believe you've explored the idea that the tribe benefits from having a "campfire watcher". Let's suppose that is true. The season when our ancestors had PUFAs available was mostly in autumn. The cooling season. We don't know the exact manner of predation they faced, but perhaps we can assume that in cooler climates - with winter imminent - predators and growing cubs (and fellow humans) would be an especially imminent threat to a tribe. Perhaps PUFAs could be part of a signaling mechanism toggling certain genes to keep a person awake for 25 hours.
Could be, I also classify Non-24 into "Type I" (super long circadian rhythm, basically unstable DSPS) and "Type II" (what I have (used to have? lol), total inability to entrain in absence of a particularly long rhythm.
I suspect that the varying length of rhythm would be the evolutionary adaptation, and the other type just a broken system. But who knows! Evolution works in mysterious ways, lol.
I am not convinced by your hyper-palatable theory. You clearly like the cream a lot, it's psychologically extremely satisfying to you, and then it seems metabolically satisfying too - the cement truck hits. Seems clear that your system really likes the high-fat diet. So the trick to weight loss, if there were one, would be figuring out what to consume that gives the metabolic and psychological satiety, whilst restricting the total energy intake to below baseline, so it has to pull some from stores.
Maybe there ends up being a combination of practices - say, some minor "fasting", by when you feel the desire to go for some ad-libitum cream, you don't actually go for it for 30 minutes, or something. Enough to reduce the day's intake by a noticable amount whilst not feeling like restriction at any particular point.
I was using hyper-palatable in that nutrition science sense, where it makes you vastly overeat. I'd put cream (for me) in the "goldilocks palatability" zone: it tastes very good, but not so much that I never get satiated.
It is obviously quite satisfying to me.
> So the trick to weight loss, if there were one, would be figuring out what to consume that gives the metabolic and psychological satiety, whilst restricting the total energy intake to below baseline, so it has to pull some from stores.
I am still not convinced that this is actually causal. I think restricting carolies to induce "pulling from the stores" is pushing on a rope. (With some exceptions maybe.)
If I was able to access those stores, I should automatically and intuitively reduce my intake, because I'm on a drip of fat-energy all day long. This is exactly what happened the first 75lbs. I never restricted, I just wasn't hungry cause lipolysis + intake put me in energy balance.
I'm not sure how inducing a larger deficit would increase my access to adipose stores.
I am realizing that I did not pre-register, as it were, any of my expectations about what happened to you on this diet. I'm not sure I really even have much in the way of expectation. I have a baseline bias that it should be possible to get below 30% fat by body weight without experiencing symptoms of starvation, but I suppose there is no a priori reason why this should be the case. If it were to turn out that more than a certain amount of polyunsaturated fatty acid damage permanently complicates weight maintenance, I suppose I wouldn't be hugely shocked.
You'd hope so (<30%)! Of course it could be I'm permanently damaged. On the other hand, my main hypothesis rn (high LA) would have me just wait & keep doing what I'm doing anyway for 6 more years. Might be boring, but then again I'm at a point where I'm not in a rush, health & weight wise.
Regarding registering expectations, I don't know if that's always useful if your sciencing strategy is FAFO like mine usually is. My default expectation is "Hopefully I'll lose fat" and it usually doesn't come true except for a pretty consistent string of ex150-1 thru -10 or so, and super related diets. Although it only seems to have worked from ~50% to ~30%bf so far.
Hey, I had the same experience with caffeine! Stop drinking it cold turkey, and in about 2 days the withdraw symptoms were pretty much gone, which is surprising, 'cause I REALLY LIKE COFFEE! Who knows lol
Dry fasting seems to be one of those things that you should ease your way into if you do it at all, and absolutely with supervision. Personally I get dizzy in less than three hours without water, but I'm in extremely dry and high altitude Colorado, but I'd assume it'd be pretty bad elsewhere too.
I think I've seen that brand at the store, will have to check it out! During the summer I drink mostly cold brew coffee, but with cream not black heh. It's certainly much milder, but I'm still not sure I could drink it black..
> I decided to do a full “fat day” instead of making it a rice + fatty meat day, just because I assumed that it would be better in terms of swamping, rather than adding fatty beef on top of rice.
I wonder about this often. I'm usually on basically a HCLPLF diet (my wife is Asian, so this makes it easier to have shared meals than a keto diet), but sometimes I would like to have a fat day. Is separating the high-carb diet and the high-fat diet by one night's sleep enough for Randle cycle related problems? Would be nice to know.
I don't really know for sure. Bart Kay says no (not enough time). Anabology's honey diet is predicated on this working: he eats carbs in the morning/until lunch, fasts 4h (blood sugar comes down), then protein + fat for dinner. Then again, he was never obese AFAIK so maybe it's a case of "it works when you're metabolically healthy."
Playing devils advocate… from a CICO perspective, of course you didn’t lose fat - your calorie intake and out output were constant.
You mean equal? Cause I don't think "constant" (over time) would matter in terms of CICO.
Of course, I'd argue, this is just stating an observed fact - yes, my CI and CO were equal, we already knew that because I didn't lose any fat. That's like saying my bank account stayed the same cause no more dollars came in than went out. That's the definition of "stayed the same" :) It tells us nothing.
I wonder if you went to the EU or SEA for a month each what your weight & BF% would become with your exfat150 diet and without it.
Yea that would be interesting. What do you think the relevant factors would be? The ingredients/quality of the cream? Something else?
What is legal or customary in additives and agricultural practices. Emulsifiers are a new thing for me for example. The GRAS list in the EU is much smaller than the USA
"I guess it’s.. true? I decided to quit caffeine cold turkey. Very mild headache situation for 2 days. Totally fine after that, no issues.
I honestly don’t get what the big deal is."
Hahah, you're lucky you're not like me. My withdrawals from caffeine are intense, to the point of being disabled in some ways in the case of my psoas muscle radiating so much extreme pain I cannot jump or crouch and such without feeling like a 100 year old in poor health, haha. I get intense migraines is well and lethargy and depression etc. It's wild.
It usually takes ~2 weeks to feel mostly fine, but day ~3-11 are the worst for me.
Yea I was super surprised cause I heard plenty of people that react just like you :)
I'm trying this as of today. I've been on keto / carnivore for 1.5 years. I've been curious about the "carbo" corner because of your theory that some people are diary adapted and some are whole grain adapted.
How come you're not worried about micronutrients? Beef is nutritious but I doubt rice is. I'll take a multivitamin, but I wonder what your take is on those in general.
I was only doing it for a month, and I estimated I'd have plenty of buffer of any micronutrients. You are right that a pure white rice diet will supposedly lead to micronutrient deficiency. I think it's called Beri Beri and pertains to B vitamins, which are e.g. in meat.
If I were to do the rice diet for months at a time (for whatever reason) I'd try to find a way and sneak beef in, or take some vitamins as well, probably.
Good luck! While the rice was pretty tolerable for me, it didn't exactly produce any weight loss, heh. Maybe you have more luck! Let me know how it goes :)
I'll be honest, the first time I read about your Non-24 condition, I looked at your self-reported epic caffeine consumption and went "gee, this doesn't seem all that mysterious." But I decided to good-faith assume that you'd already experimented and ruled out caffeine as a factor in the past. It's awesome that you were able to go on and off caffeine without world-wrecking side effects and most importantly, without the Non-24 coming back. Huge congratulations on (hopefully) officially defeating Non-24!
That said, I'm kind of surprised that in this experiment you didn't control for the caffeine using something like caffeine pills. Yeah, caffeine pills are no fun, but suddenly removing a lipolysis and energy expenditure enhancer that you've been taking in huge doses for years seems like it would irreparably confound your data. (Could also help explain the low temperatures too, since caffeine increases thermogenesis.)
Still, it's incredibly interesting to read about your experiences going from a pure-keto diet to a pure-carb diet. The glucose sensitivity and eerily similar caloric intake especially. And it's great to see another nail in the coffin of the "low-caloric-density" strategy.
Hope you enjoy the new possibilities you have now that you're free of Non-24!
> I'll be honest, the first time I read about your Non-24 condition, I looked at your self-reported epic caffeine consumption and went "gee, this doesn't seem all that mysterious."
Everybody does, lol. But I had this condition at age 3, and I didn't start drinking coffee until my late 20s ;)
I'm happy for you. What a relief to have apparently solved Non-24. Something in your physiology seems to have changed such that two extreme forms of dieting don't much affect it, either to evoke or eliminate. The PUFA theory is something to keep an eye on; in my case I had already cut 85% of them out of my diet two years before my Non-24 diagnosis, and so strict elimination is the only factor I can tinker with there.
Broscience fun speculation: There is a theory that Non-24 is a species adaptation to keep tribes alive. I believe you've explored the idea that the tribe benefits from having a "campfire watcher". Let's suppose that is true. The season when our ancestors had PUFAs available was mostly in autumn. The cooling season. We don't know the exact manner of predation they faced, but perhaps we can assume that in cooler climates - with winter imminent - predators and growing cubs (and fellow humans) would be an especially imminent threat to a tribe. Perhaps PUFAs could be part of a signaling mechanism toggling certain genes to keep a person awake for 25 hours.
Could be, I also classify Non-24 into "Type I" (super long circadian rhythm, basically unstable DSPS) and "Type II" (what I have (used to have? lol), total inability to entrain in absence of a particularly long rhythm.
I suspect that the varying length of rhythm would be the evolutionary adaptation, and the other type just a broken system. But who knows! Evolution works in mysterious ways, lol.
I am not convinced by your hyper-palatable theory. You clearly like the cream a lot, it's psychologically extremely satisfying to you, and then it seems metabolically satisfying too - the cement truck hits. Seems clear that your system really likes the high-fat diet. So the trick to weight loss, if there were one, would be figuring out what to consume that gives the metabolic and psychological satiety, whilst restricting the total energy intake to below baseline, so it has to pull some from stores.
Maybe there ends up being a combination of practices - say, some minor "fasting", by when you feel the desire to go for some ad-libitum cream, you don't actually go for it for 30 minutes, or something. Enough to reduce the day's intake by a noticable amount whilst not feeling like restriction at any particular point.
I was using hyper-palatable in that nutrition science sense, where it makes you vastly overeat. I'd put cream (for me) in the "goldilocks palatability" zone: it tastes very good, but not so much that I never get satiated.
It is obviously quite satisfying to me.
> So the trick to weight loss, if there were one, would be figuring out what to consume that gives the metabolic and psychological satiety, whilst restricting the total energy intake to below baseline, so it has to pull some from stores.
I am still not convinced that this is actually causal. I think restricting carolies to induce "pulling from the stores" is pushing on a rope. (With some exceptions maybe.)
If I was able to access those stores, I should automatically and intuitively reduce my intake, because I'm on a drip of fat-energy all day long. This is exactly what happened the first 75lbs. I never restricted, I just wasn't hungry cause lipolysis + intake put me in energy balance.
I'm not sure how inducing a larger deficit would increase my access to adipose stores.
Still feels like we are all missing something.
Maybe it is just as "simple" as PUFAd body fat and needing to expunge it over years.
Maybe it's slinging tons of clean dairy into diets. Or "you can eat the junk, but first you gotta get through this mug of cream"
> slinging tons of clean dairy into diets
haha I love that term
Don’t know if you are a fan of Bret Weinstein and Heather Heying, but they did an episode of their Dark Horse podcast recently, about their dry fasting experiences: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/bret-weinstein-darkhorse-podcast/id1471581521?i=1000677692409
I'm aware of them but haven't listened to the podcast, thanks, will check it out.
I am realizing that I did not pre-register, as it were, any of my expectations about what happened to you on this diet. I'm not sure I really even have much in the way of expectation. I have a baseline bias that it should be possible to get below 30% fat by body weight without experiencing symptoms of starvation, but I suppose there is no a priori reason why this should be the case. If it were to turn out that more than a certain amount of polyunsaturated fatty acid damage permanently complicates weight maintenance, I suppose I wouldn't be hugely shocked.
You'd hope so (<30%)! Of course it could be I'm permanently damaged. On the other hand, my main hypothesis rn (high LA) would have me just wait & keep doing what I'm doing anyway for 6 more years. Might be boring, but then again I'm at a point where I'm not in a rush, health & weight wise.
Regarding registering expectations, I don't know if that's always useful if your sciencing strategy is FAFO like mine usually is. My default expectation is "Hopefully I'll lose fat" and it usually doesn't come true except for a pretty consistent string of ex150-1 thru -10 or so, and super related diets. Although it only seems to have worked from ~50% to ~30%bf so far.
Hey, I had the same experience with caffeine! Stop drinking it cold turkey, and in about 2 days the withdraw symptoms were pretty much gone, which is surprising, 'cause I REALLY LIKE COFFEE! Who knows lol
Lucky us!
“Noticed the last few days on my CO2 monitor that I seem to be breathing out way more CO2 than on ex150.”
If you asked Ray Peat, this means your metabolic rate became more effective, which should be a good thing.
Of course as a ketard, I interpret it the other way around: burning more oxygen for the same ATPs seems inefficient.
neither, this is just a consequence of the RQ of carbohydrate metabolism being higher than the RQ of fat metabolism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respiratory_quotient
Well that just tells you if it's efficient or inefficient.
Dry fasting seems to be one of those things that you should ease your way into if you do it at all, and absolutely with supervision. Personally I get dizzy in less than three hours without water, but I'm in extremely dry and high altitude Colorado, but I'd assume it'd be pretty bad elsewhere too.
My main concern is that coffee is a fluid, so I'd have to give up coffee again :'-(
I share your distaste for black brewed coffee, but I like black cold brew fine; a quart every morning; this and three quarts of filtered water in a gallon pitcher lasts me four days: https://chameleoncoffee.com/products/vanilla-cold-brew-concentrate-32oz
I think I've seen that brand at the store, will have to check it out! During the summer I drink mostly cold brew coffee, but with cream not black heh. It's certainly much milder, but I'm still not sure I could drink it black..