> I can, and have been, full to the point of pain and even vomiting, yet ravenous.
Been there during my binging days, haha. Not fun, by far. I literally am unable to reach this point when eating what I eat now, e.g. meat, veg, even rice with saturated fats. With rice I might overeat (feels like) a bit, but I still don't get to the point I can with ultra-processed where, where I can _easily_ eat to being so full I will almost vomit.
Writing this, I actually cannot get there with just ice cream either (sat fats), but give me linoleic acid filled cakes, cookies etc and it's game on. Two years ago I actually did various food experiments with junk foods, and for a week I could slam down 1Mcal a day for 5 days or so, and I had to stop because I literally couldn't walk at that point due to extreme pain while being bloated on top, lol.
When it comes to my hunger in general, I am quite in tune with my body, assuming I eat non-ultra-processed-foods with saturated fats.
I'll still be hungry even if consume tons of fats, such as consuming 500g of cream in the morning or even more (can at times easily lol), but afterwards I'll straight up be repulsed by fats, yet still salivate over some lean chicken or steak and actively seek it out. Similarly if I eat tons and tons of protein, I'll still be hungry shortly after, but I'll literally eat butter right off the block and avoid any protein whatsoever as I'll be too full to eat any protein, but fats won't be a problem.
So for me it's more of a case of needing both to be in an equilibrium of sorts before I am satiated. How much I eat of each varies greatly, though. There are days where I don't feel like eating much protein and have lots of fats or the exact opposite the next day.
Yea it's interesting how the saturated fat gives you 100% satiety for more (pure) saturated fat, almost to the point of repulsion. But you could still sneak in some protein/carbs. On the other hand, it does seem to give me some sort of "overall/underlying" satiety in the sense that I'm not sitting there craving chicken or cake after getting my fill of cream. Whereas if I fasted (= also zero protein/carb intake) I would be ravenous. That's why I think we need to reach energy balance somehow, as a minimum (which the fat does). Then we could still overeat something else, but if we don't reach energy balance on our diet, then we will DEFINITELY overeat on something else.
I'm not so sure satiety is an energy feedback system, I would rather consider it a nutrient feedback system, as it acts much quicker than any sensation of energy could transpire to the system. Also if you consume too much energy and aren't in reductive stress, the body would generally handle the excess by itself (hyperactivity, increased body temperature, less or later hunger etc). So it isn't so much that something broke our intake management system, as intake shouldn't matter after all(as long as it doesn't contain some problematic ingredient). I would rather argue something broke the excess energy management system, and thus the only effects are detrimental (eg tiredness, lethargy, even more or sooner hunger). Just finding something that limits your intake isn't fixing that part so much, but can be a good approach to lose weight and then reconsider the options.
Yes, good point. In a sense we don't use "energy" (and, in fact, "energy" doesn't exist, just like "money" doesn't exist only USD and EUR and Yen) but specific nutrients/substrates.
The line between intake management system and excess energy management system is kind of slippery and I often don't know which side of the fence I'm on, haha. It's almost as if the line blurs so much when you zoom in that you basically can't distinguish.
E.g., is "satiety" broken? Or is the "handling excess carbs" system broken? In certain ways these could be the exact same thing.
Kids can often eat a ton of calories, become almost ecstatic afterwards and simply dump the excess energy that way, while still having room for desert. So they are managing the excess energy while not managing satiety a lot. And thus it isn't two sides of the same coin, it's a sensory system that gets input from various sources, where the excess energy management is just one inhibitory source. Try eating exclusively empty calories of one macro (eg just honey or just butter), you won't get satiated at all while the energy requirements are easily met.
So I would certainly perceive them as separate systems. It's true to that when natural satiety is low, you will eat less and thus chances of fat gain is low too, but that's like saying living on sea level will avoid the risk of falling of a mountain. It's that with a proper metabolism, even mountaineers should be safe and the body can handle the excess. Nowadays that seem to have gone and even people on seemingly normal diets, without particular satiation issues, still put on a bit of weight. And that shifts the bell curve towards a larger portion of the population becoming obese already.
My office is celebrating Cinco de Mayo today. I know, it's embarrassing. Anyway, I brought my cream-cheese-stuffed roasted jalapenos and they *vanished*, 24 gone in five minutes. I do get funny looks eating queso with a spoon instead of tortilla chips, but... low-carb, you know? I am sated. :D
Just writing to let you know that there is another person trying out your cream-based keto. I am almost a week in after shifting from a mostly potato SlimeMoldTimeMold eating plan. I so wanted that one to work. Potatoes plus eggs and spinach fills up the nutrient profile so well. And it worked in the sense that I was losing weight and feeling totally satisfied. It failed, though, because I had constant joint pain. I have a connective tissue disorder that complicates some of the health questions. My joints feel better with the switch from potatoes to cream, though it has not been long enough to really evaluate. I will give you an update when I have more time on the diet.
I had rashes from the potatoes that started a week in, and only went away 1-2 weeks after I stopped. I think potatoes are just chock-full of lectins or whatever those are called and can cause all kinds of issues.
Have you tried a carnivore style elimination diet? Lots of people resolve joint and autoimmune issues on that.
Yes, I have tried carnivore in several versions. Someday I need to catalog all of the different things I have tried. For me, at least, carnivore did not work any better than a less restrictive keto did, and was harder to keep up.
> I can, and have been, full to the point of pain and even vomiting, yet ravenous.
Been there during my binging days, haha. Not fun, by far. I literally am unable to reach this point when eating what I eat now, e.g. meat, veg, even rice with saturated fats. With rice I might overeat (feels like) a bit, but I still don't get to the point I can with ultra-processed where, where I can _easily_ eat to being so full I will almost vomit.
Writing this, I actually cannot get there with just ice cream either (sat fats), but give me linoleic acid filled cakes, cookies etc and it's game on. Two years ago I actually did various food experiments with junk foods, and for a week I could slam down 1Mcal a day for 5 days or so, and I had to stop because I literally couldn't walk at that point due to extreme pain while being bloated on top, lol.
When it comes to my hunger in general, I am quite in tune with my body, assuming I eat non-ultra-processed-foods with saturated fats.
I'll still be hungry even if consume tons of fats, such as consuming 500g of cream in the morning or even more (can at times easily lol), but afterwards I'll straight up be repulsed by fats, yet still salivate over some lean chicken or steak and actively seek it out. Similarly if I eat tons and tons of protein, I'll still be hungry shortly after, but I'll literally eat butter right off the block and avoid any protein whatsoever as I'll be too full to eat any protein, but fats won't be a problem.
So for me it's more of a case of needing both to be in an equilibrium of sorts before I am satiated. How much I eat of each varies greatly, though. There are days where I don't feel like eating much protein and have lots of fats or the exact opposite the next day.
Yea it's interesting how the saturated fat gives you 100% satiety for more (pure) saturated fat, almost to the point of repulsion. But you could still sneak in some protein/carbs. On the other hand, it does seem to give me some sort of "overall/underlying" satiety in the sense that I'm not sitting there craving chicken or cake after getting my fill of cream. Whereas if I fasted (= also zero protein/carb intake) I would be ravenous. That's why I think we need to reach energy balance somehow, as a minimum (which the fat does). Then we could still overeat something else, but if we don't reach energy balance on our diet, then we will DEFINITELY overeat on something else.
In a way necessary, but not sufficient, I guess.
Your experience reflects a lot of my situation.
I'm not so sure satiety is an energy feedback system, I would rather consider it a nutrient feedback system, as it acts much quicker than any sensation of energy could transpire to the system. Also if you consume too much energy and aren't in reductive stress, the body would generally handle the excess by itself (hyperactivity, increased body temperature, less or later hunger etc). So it isn't so much that something broke our intake management system, as intake shouldn't matter after all(as long as it doesn't contain some problematic ingredient). I would rather argue something broke the excess energy management system, and thus the only effects are detrimental (eg tiredness, lethargy, even more or sooner hunger). Just finding something that limits your intake isn't fixing that part so much, but can be a good approach to lose weight and then reconsider the options.
Yes, good point. In a sense we don't use "energy" (and, in fact, "energy" doesn't exist, just like "money" doesn't exist only USD and EUR and Yen) but specific nutrients/substrates.
The line between intake management system and excess energy management system is kind of slippery and I often don't know which side of the fence I'm on, haha. It's almost as if the line blurs so much when you zoom in that you basically can't distinguish.
E.g., is "satiety" broken? Or is the "handling excess carbs" system broken? In certain ways these could be the exact same thing.
Kids can often eat a ton of calories, become almost ecstatic afterwards and simply dump the excess energy that way, while still having room for desert. So they are managing the excess energy while not managing satiety a lot. And thus it isn't two sides of the same coin, it's a sensory system that gets input from various sources, where the excess energy management is just one inhibitory source. Try eating exclusively empty calories of one macro (eg just honey or just butter), you won't get satiated at all while the energy requirements are easily met.
So I would certainly perceive them as separate systems. It's true to that when natural satiety is low, you will eat less and thus chances of fat gain is low too, but that's like saying living on sea level will avoid the risk of falling of a mountain. It's that with a proper metabolism, even mountaineers should be safe and the body can handle the excess. Nowadays that seem to have gone and even people on seemingly normal diets, without particular satiation issues, still put on a bit of weight. And that shifts the bell curve towards a larger portion of the population becoming obese already.
My office is celebrating Cinco de Mayo today. I know, it's embarrassing. Anyway, I brought my cream-cheese-stuffed roasted jalapenos and they *vanished*, 24 gone in five minutes. I do get funny looks eating queso with a spoon instead of tortilla chips, but... low-carb, you know? I am sated. :D
Nice job. You can pay in weird looks or you can pay in pounds on the scale later. You always pay.
Just writing to let you know that there is another person trying out your cream-based keto. I am almost a week in after shifting from a mostly potato SlimeMoldTimeMold eating plan. I so wanted that one to work. Potatoes plus eggs and spinach fills up the nutrient profile so well. And it worked in the sense that I was losing weight and feeling totally satisfied. It failed, though, because I had constant joint pain. I have a connective tissue disorder that complicates some of the health questions. My joints feel better with the switch from potatoes to cream, though it has not been long enough to really evaluate. I will give you an update when I have more time on the diet.
Thanks, and good luck :) Keep us updated.
I had rashes from the potatoes that started a week in, and only went away 1-2 weeks after I stopped. I think potatoes are just chock-full of lectins or whatever those are called and can cause all kinds of issues.
Have you tried a carnivore style elimination diet? Lots of people resolve joint and autoimmune issues on that.
Yes, I have tried carnivore in several versions. Someday I need to catalog all of the different things I have tried. For me, at least, carnivore did not work any better than a less restrictive keto did, and was harder to keep up.
Pretty much same experience for me.