> physically full and the state of metabolic satiety are so different
Back in the dimly remembered days when obesity wasn't a problem, "being full" was what you said when you meant "I am sated". It was a metaphor.
The actual feeling of physical fullness was only experienced if you ate well beyond satiety for some reason, like I don't know, an eating competition or something, or if maybe you'd been starving and suddenly got lots of food.
I'm actually not sure I've ever experienced physical fullness. Sometimes if I eat far too much for social reasons I feel all bloated and nauseous, but there would still be room to fit more in if for some reason it was important.
I easily get to "slightly painfully full" even on low-PUFA refeeds now, if they involve enough protein or sugar.
Last refeed was nearly entirely starch & legumes, which made this significantly more challenging - while they are voluminous, they are much harder to overeat.
> I easily get to "slightly painfully full" even on low-PUFA refeeds now, if they involve enough protein or sugar.
Oh interesting, is that initially, or after the high-protein hyperphagia thingy has kicked in? It could be that the protein kicks your lipostat and suddenly you need 10000 kcal *right now* so you start gorging like a famine victim.
Serious athletes sometimes get this as I remember, it's actually possible to burn more than you can eat and they have actual physical trouble consuming enough carbs. I was never quite that mad, but I know people who were that mad.
After the high-protein hyperphagia has kicked in, so depending on protein intake, half a day to 2 days in I would say.
The very first meal is always incredibly satiating even if I eat scottish shortbread with tea :D It's a hilarious feeling cause it's so unfamiliar w/ those types of foods.
That makes sense then, the mysterious high-protein effect kicks in, suddenly your body thinks you're horribly underweight and you're trying to eat as much as possible to fix that, and you don't feel like stopping until the point where you're actually doing yourself physical harm by stuffing yourself literally to bursting and you have to stop for the pain but you're still hungry?
It feels a little more like a sliding scale, depending on how much of certain foods (mostly meats when on keto, but also I'd say certain SAD type more swampy foods like cake/ice cream) I eat, but basically yes.
It is relatively easy when eating "normal" foods for me to push it to a point where I cannot physically eat to satiety, ever, and I think I spent most of my life at that level lol.
Yeah, like I say, homeostat broken to the point you don't believe it exists. But it seems to work well enough on ex150, even if it's still set a bit high?
Are you sure thats not a gas thing potentially wrt ‘painfully full’? I’ve realized I never really sense gas / bloating in my body and in almost all cases I never got pain from it unlike many others
At least at first oleomargarine was made from lard, I think. But of course the lard had PUFAs in it because they were feeding seed oilz to the pigs. Later on they realised that they could hydrogenate the seed oilz to make fake lard to put in the fake butter.
The problem with capitalism is that it gives you what you want for cheap. You need to be careful about what you want.
To your point on satiety, food companies literally hire scientists to come up with chemical concoctions to make fast food and junk food extra moreish. Despite using lower quality ingredients.
Yea. But I went paleo in college, and I gained 100lbs doing keto on 98% home cooked meals from fresh ingredients. Clearly, you can have satiety problems even without almost any junk food.
I never had even prediabetic blood sugar, even at 300lbs or pre keto on SAD. So on that front I got lucky.
With regard to insulin, I'm not convinced that was necessarily better. Protein is very insulinogenic, many types are more insulinogenic than many common carbs.
I was checking the obesity rate graph... do we know what happened in France? There the obesity rate increase seem to stagnate around 2006 and even decrease since then. They are even below their 1990s rate. That's pretty unusual and would worth an investigation. I've tried to found any national program or bans or whatever, but could not find anything unusual (like they had programs about eating more healthy food and move more and etc. but almost all western countries has those).
Not sure! People do comment on that. All these stats are of course super coarse; who knows how each country counts obesity, how reliable is it, did they change their method.. could be that France's fat people plateaued and they got a lot of younger immigrants? Or something else..
My husband and I have been absolutely ruthless about cutting seed oils for almost 4 years now. We did see a quick, initial weight loss…which then plateaued. He mostly liked carnivore, I felt like I was dying. Right now we’re ancestral-ish with a slight Peat angle. We feel good, but aren’t losing weight. What are we missing? At this point I’m ready to throw in the towel.
I drank a ton of cream the month we did carnivore, and very much enjoyed that, despite the experience as a whole not being fruitful. But we also have a 7-year-old, for whom I’m trying to model “normal” eating, family meals, adapting one’s palate to a diversity of foods, etc.
I had chemo as a kid, and I’m starting to believe that maybe I have some kind of low-level permanent metabolic insult from that. I don’t know. It just feels like I’m doing/have done All The Things and there’s some sort of…switch…that is flipped the wrong direction. I just wish I knew what to do to flip it.
It's not really seed oils per se, it's polyunsaturated fats, which are absolutely everywhere and can be pretty sneaky. Has it at least been the case that your problems stopped getting any worse?
I think you need to be totally ruthless to actually see improvements. I didn't see any change until I renounced my favourite totally pure organic peanut butter as well as all the stuff with rapeseed oil in it, and pork and chicken. Sigh.
Even then the improvements are really slow. It takes a long time to get all that crap out of your system. It took a long time to get it in there, after all.
I'm currently thinking that lose weight, then put weight back on, and repeat, might be a good way of flushing PUFAs out.
Right, we dropped pork and chicken as well, peanut butter, everything. You know how people talk about 80/20? We’re seriously at like 99/1. Thankfully, yes, problems have stopped getting worse. Weight is not going up, just staying level. I could count on one hand the number of times per year we eat at restaurants, and even then it’s like, a salad without dressing. 🙄 SO frustrating.
Sure sounds like you're doing it right! A handful of trips to restaurants shouldn't make much difference.
I'm surprised that you haven't noticed anything after four whole years. My set point seems to have come down from 99kg (and rising!) to about 95kg after two years, and various other things have improved too. I'm still obese, just, but it does seem to be fixing itself real slowly. I have yo-yo'd a bit though, mainly by accident.
I’ve found in my experience that PUFA avoidance is not enough to help people loose weight, it’s only partly helpful. You will need to try multiple things at once to actually get full results
This matches my experience with severely overweight/obese people. It seems a lot of people lose "a couple of pounds" (say 10-20lbs) probably just from a reduction in acute ECS stimulation? E.g. Tucker.
But if you're 100lbs overweight, it won't just normalize if you do nothing else, in my experience.
ok so what is meant by ex150? do you have somewhere where the shorthand is explained? i get the rice one, but i just started reading here and am interested in all you have tried and what exactly is working now!
Arguing against CICO is so frustrating for so many reasons people are so snarky about it and love to interrupt you and treat you like you are stupid it actually is a very technically difficult thing to argue against. It's like the healthcare equivalent of believing the sun revolves around the earth. It's such a graceful seeming belief and it works for enough people some of the time, it's a zombie belief which actually has a ton of holes but people keep believing in it because disproving it properly requires damn near perfection alongside an audience which has to be versed in thermodynamic technical language. Thermodynamics is one of the hardest things to actually talk about and most people who reference the law are not using it correctly. I have been working on an anti-CICO paper for so long trying to explain the basis of why it is not a good model of the human body. It's hard but I feel like once one of us cracks it properly from first principles it's gonna be a game changer.
Yea the main issue is that the people who are left believing in naive CICO are, by definition, not very smart. All the smart people have moved on to "it's complicated."
Zero of the CICO people who ever brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics to me have ever been able to cite the First Law of Thermodynamics. If you're lucky they copy & paste something, but usually they just get angry and call you names.
- Oral vitamin D should never have been put with K2.
- The dose and form of k2 matters.
- Many people feel worse with K2 MK-7 because it is a large molecule that slows PGP detox.
- You've never tried K2 MK4 in HIGH DOSE or without vitamin D
- I would start at a medium dose of 5 to 10 mg MK-4 with breakfast in the morning.
- Then work your way up...
- Vitamin D from the sun utilizes your cholesterol and is the optimal way to raise your active D because it runs on the sulfation backbone.
- I am not claiming oral vitamin D is rat poison i am just saying its non-optimal
Japanese studies go as high a 45mg or 45 000 mcg for K2 MK-4... in our industrial world and long term deficiencies it takes minimum of 10mg or 10 000 mcg to start making a noticeable difference and at least a few weeks of it for most..
I've been doing it for 6 months and have excellent results.
Most supplements have less than a few hundred micro grams, will hardly make a difference.
Search on amazon or wherever for high dose k2 mk4, you will find it in 20mg or 45mg doses...
I have so many hypothesis people like collected heh. I would probably not get to this one within the next year :( And seeing some pretty great results and have in the past without supplementing K2 at all.
Why do you need to do one thing at a time to prove to people what causes fat loss?
Just stack it with what you are doing right now.
What are the other theories you have to try? Do they understand how the adipocytes signal release and storage of fat?... We do have differences in how we adjust to different macros.
I don't think it's good for experimental purposes to compromise your vessel with K2 MK-4 defficiency.
Given you also avoid plants I can guarantee you have a K2-mk4 defficiency cause you'd hardly be converting.. There is nothing to convert.
If I do 10 things at a time, I don't know which one or which combination did it.
I am of course already stacking to a degree, but there's sort of a limit of how much you can stack.
A lot of things can also have a negative effect, so stacking more wouldn't just be useless/confound it, it might actually prevent something else from working.
E.g. many vitamins are also known to have negative effects in certain ways. C, E, A, D, in some ways, and the B vitamins are suspected to be obesogenic as well. I don't know if I've heard anything bad about K, but what are the odds there's no possible downside..
> Do they understand how the adipocytes signal release and storage of fat?
Yes. E.g. PUFA theory, vinegar, ..
I certainly don't have any of the official vitamin K deficiency symtoms like bruising easily. In fact, I bruise extremely little and heal like a MFer. I recently got some 2x6s dropped onto my shins and while it drew a lot of blood, it didn't bruise at all even on the shins and healed up super quick.
Bad bruising or poor wound healing is EXTREME level K2 defficiency.
In this case a defficiency of K2-mk4 is itself a confounder.
You enjoy a high calcium diet while getting very little K or K2 and if you were eating grass fed you would be getting an over abundance of iron if eating meat and this would also confound.
You are are running the experiment of how long you can do a K2 defficient diet.
It would actually be one less experiment.
Weston A Price would certainly agree and its not a positive experiment.
Sorry if I've missed this, but what do you think about you yourself taking GLP-1 agonists? Have you tried them or are you opposed? They are working for me re: satiety.
I'm pretty opposed. For one, the effects in studies are pretty underwhelming. Even vinegar beats them by a mile in terms of weight loss, without any of the side effects. My own diet also had much better success than even the best responders to Tirzepatide.
And the side effect profile is pretty bad, I think.
On top, it wouldn't help me achieve my goal. My goal isn't to be thin, it's to solve the obesity epidemic. If we just use a drug, we won't ever figure out what caused it.
Thanks for the link. You might be interested in newer systematic reviews that found that tirzepatide is muscle sparing. I do regular DEXAs (am overdue for one, actually) and so far so good re: body composition. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12394919/
(The short version is: "The available evidence suggests that treatment is associated with reductions in fat mass while maintaining the relative preservation of lean mass. Indicators of muscle composition remained stable or showed signs of improvement.")
I'd be curious to hear about it if you ever decide to experiment with them. I take a lower dose than typically prescribed to avoid the gastrointestinal side effects and am having pretty good results. (Better than anything else I've ever tried for sure.) For what it's worth, I also don't believe in CICO, I agree with you that it's at least partially a partitioning issue related to hormone disruption by cumulative environmental factors.
Tirzepitide also leads to increased fat oxidation, which to me supports the partitioning hypothesis, although does not unfortunately offer any help identifying the cause of obesity.
Wow, so well and succinctly explained -lemme see if I got this right...
- You're right and everyone else is wrong. Nay, stupid.
- The human body has nothing to do with Thermodynamics.
- It didn't work for you so obviously it won't work for anybody else (because you're so methodical and meticulous about experimental parameters, right?)
Great article, and I agree with absolutely everything, except maybe fasting. As far as I understand, feeling very very hungry is normal for the first several days, but then your ghrelin levels decline and the hunger goes away. For some people it can take up to a week or more. You said that if a person is feeling starving after a few days, they should probably stop. But just because you're very hungry doesn't mean you are losing muscle or that you've entered “starvation mode” or whatever. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on fasting centers like True North, where apparently people routinely fast for several weeks.
I personally only have limited experience with fasting, not being able to get over that hump of feeling bad and very hungry. But people like Alan Goldhammer (of True North) emphasize the need to actually rest while fasting. It's no wonder many people never get past the first few days, as most of us can't take time away from life at a fasting center or laying around in bed. I have little kids to take care of, which makes it difficult. Most people have jobs to go to. So this could be a point against fasting, just in that it isn't practical for most people. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for those who are able to actually rest and potentially fast for a longer period.
> As far as I understand, feeling very very hungry is normal for the first several days, but then your ghrelin levels decline and the hunger goes away.
That's what they say, and it doesn't seem to be true :) Like I describe in the post. I know many people who've tried fasting and it didn't happen for any of them.
> apparently people routinely fast for several weeks.
I don't know that particular place, but every time I look into these they define "fasting" as eating 800kcal/day or something. I've done 7 days w/ a small amount of creamy coffee and on 800 I might be able to do longer, who knows. But it's rarely real fasting as in zero intake.
Of course it could be that these people are right and both of us would eventually make it over the "hump" if we were relaxed enough and forced ourselves through. But I think the better explanation is that it doesn't work, at least not in us (or anyone I know).
At True North, I know they do actual water only fasting. I do hope to experiment more with longer fasts myself at some point (as my kids get older and hopefully life slows down a bit 😅) so I'll have to report back then 😁. I've never suffered from obesity, however, I'm just overweight from having kids and am trying to lose that weight. So I'm not sure my experience would translate to those who are obese, even if it works. I've enjoyed reading Herbert Shelton on the topic of fasting, but he was pre-obesity epidemic so again, not sure his observations would translate to modern day. But still, a fascinating topic!
> physically full and the state of metabolic satiety are so different
Back in the dimly remembered days when obesity wasn't a problem, "being full" was what you said when you meant "I am sated". It was a metaphor.
The actual feeling of physical fullness was only experienced if you ate well beyond satiety for some reason, like I don't know, an eating competition or something, or if maybe you'd been starving and suddenly got lots of food.
I'm actually not sure I've ever experienced physical fullness. Sometimes if I eat far too much for social reasons I feel all bloated and nauseous, but there would still be room to fit more in if for some reason it was important.
I easily get to "slightly painfully full" even on low-PUFA refeeds now, if they involve enough protein or sugar.
Last refeed was nearly entirely starch & legumes, which made this significantly more challenging - while they are voluminous, they are much harder to overeat.
> I easily get to "slightly painfully full" even on low-PUFA refeeds now, if they involve enough protein or sugar.
Oh interesting, is that initially, or after the high-protein hyperphagia thingy has kicked in? It could be that the protein kicks your lipostat and suddenly you need 10000 kcal *right now* so you start gorging like a famine victim.
Serious athletes sometimes get this as I remember, it's actually possible to burn more than you can eat and they have actual physical trouble consuming enough carbs. I was never quite that mad, but I know people who were that mad.
After the high-protein hyperphagia has kicked in, so depending on protein intake, half a day to 2 days in I would say.
The very first meal is always incredibly satiating even if I eat scottish shortbread with tea :D It's a hilarious feeling cause it's so unfamiliar w/ those types of foods.
That makes sense then, the mysterious high-protein effect kicks in, suddenly your body thinks you're horribly underweight and you're trying to eat as much as possible to fix that, and you don't feel like stopping until the point where you're actually doing yourself physical harm by stuffing yourself literally to bursting and you have to stop for the pain but you're still hungry?
Does that sound right?
It feels a little more like a sliding scale, depending on how much of certain foods (mostly meats when on keto, but also I'd say certain SAD type more swampy foods like cake/ice cream) I eat, but basically yes.
It is relatively easy when eating "normal" foods for me to push it to a point where I cannot physically eat to satiety, ever, and I think I spent most of my life at that level lol.
Yeah, like I say, homeostat broken to the point you don't believe it exists. But it seems to work well enough on ex150, even if it's still set a bit high?
Are you sure thats not a gas thing potentially wrt ‘painfully full’? I’ve realized I never really sense gas / bloating in my body and in almost all cases I never got pain from it unlike many others
I'm not farting that much. Could be, of course, but how's that different?
Sometimes bloating doesnt lead to gas
I def feel bloated as heck when eating high protein and some of these other foods.
> Yes, sir, that’s what it is—oleomargarine
At least at first oleomargarine was made from lard, I think. But of course the lard had PUFAs in it because they were feeding seed oilz to the pigs. Later on they realised that they could hydrogenate the seed oilz to make fake lard to put in the fake butter.
The problem with capitalism is that it gives you what you want for cheap. You need to be careful about what you want.
"CICO is like flat earth theory; it doesn’t attract smart people."
Huahahahahhahahaa. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. HAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA
not sure if CICO hater or flat eather ;)
I'm laughing in applause and approval not in disagreement 😉
> Trust me, every obese person has tried eating less.
This is not actually true. I am still technically slightly obese, and I have never tried it because it looked like a mug's game.
To your point on satiety, food companies literally hire scientists to come up with chemical concoctions to make fast food and junk food extra moreish. Despite using lower quality ingredients.
Yea. But I went paleo in college, and I gained 100lbs doing keto on 98% home cooked meals from fresh ingredients. Clearly, you can have satiety problems even without almost any junk food.
Oh interesting, so you don’t think blood sugar/insulin control made a difference for you?
I never had even prediabetic blood sugar, even at 300lbs or pre keto on SAD. So on that front I got lucky.
With regard to insulin, I'm not convinced that was necessarily better. Protein is very insulinogenic, many types are more insulinogenic than many common carbs.
I was checking the obesity rate graph... do we know what happened in France? There the obesity rate increase seem to stagnate around 2006 and even decrease since then. They are even below their 1990s rate. That's pretty unusual and would worth an investigation. I've tried to found any national program or bans or whatever, but could not find anything unusual (like they had programs about eating more healthy food and move more and etc. but almost all western countries has those).
Not sure! People do comment on that. All these stats are of course super coarse; who knows how each country counts obesity, how reliable is it, did they change their method.. could be that France's fat people plateaued and they got a lot of younger immigrants? Or something else..
I also couldn't find any obvious health thing.
My husband and I have been absolutely ruthless about cutting seed oils for almost 4 years now. We did see a quick, initial weight loss…which then plateaued. He mostly liked carnivore, I felt like I was dying. Right now we’re ancestral-ish with a slight Peat angle. We feel good, but aren’t losing weight. What are we missing? At this point I’m ready to throw in the towel.
Roughly what BMI or body fat % are you guys? Close to optimal weight, or still quite a ways away?
No, still quite a ways away.
You could always try doing crazy shit, like me :D
If you're up for it, you could try my ex150 heavy cream diet for a month: https://www.exfatloss.com/p/ex150-diet-macros-2294kcal-88-fat
I drank a ton of cream the month we did carnivore, and very much enjoyed that, despite the experience as a whole not being fruitful. But we also have a 7-year-old, for whom I’m trying to model “normal” eating, family meals, adapting one’s palate to a diversity of foods, etc.
I had chemo as a kid, and I’m starting to believe that maybe I have some kind of low-level permanent metabolic insult from that. I don’t know. It just feels like I’m doing/have done All The Things and there’s some sort of…switch…that is flipped the wrong direction. I just wish I knew what to do to flip it.
That could be :(
I am also a very difficult case, most diets don't work for me. Took me nearly 20 years to find one that did, heh. So I'd say.. keep looking?
The important part of ex150 isn't adding cream, but taking away the rest. It's quite different than eating carnivore with some cream.
It's not really seed oils per se, it's polyunsaturated fats, which are absolutely everywhere and can be pretty sneaky. Has it at least been the case that your problems stopped getting any worse?
I think you need to be totally ruthless to actually see improvements. I didn't see any change until I renounced my favourite totally pure organic peanut butter as well as all the stuff with rapeseed oil in it, and pork and chicken. Sigh.
Even then the improvements are really slow. It takes a long time to get all that crap out of your system. It took a long time to get it in there, after all.
I'm currently thinking that lose weight, then put weight back on, and repeat, might be a good way of flushing PUFAs out.
Right, we dropped pork and chicken as well, peanut butter, everything. You know how people talk about 80/20? We’re seriously at like 99/1. Thankfully, yes, problems have stopped getting worse. Weight is not going up, just staying level. I could count on one hand the number of times per year we eat at restaurants, and even then it’s like, a salad without dressing. 🙄 SO frustrating.
Sure sounds like you're doing it right! A handful of trips to restaurants shouldn't make much difference.
I'm surprised that you haven't noticed anything after four whole years. My set point seems to have come down from 99kg (and rising!) to about 95kg after two years, and various other things have improved too. I'm still obese, just, but it does seem to be fixing itself real slowly. I have yo-yo'd a bit though, mainly by accident.
I’ve found in my experience that PUFA avoidance is not enough to help people loose weight, it’s only partly helpful. You will need to try multiple things at once to actually get full results
This matches my experience with severely overweight/obese people. It seems a lot of people lose "a couple of pounds" (say 10-20lbs) probably just from a reduction in acute ECS stimulation? E.g. Tucker.
But if you're 100lbs overweight, it won't just normalize if you do nothing else, in my experience.
ok so what is meant by ex150? do you have somewhere where the shorthand is explained? i get the rice one, but i just started reading here and am interested in all you have tried and what exactly is working now!
Oh, sorry. ex150 is the heavy cream diet I invented and have mostly been eating for the last 3 years :)
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/ex150-diet-macros-2294kcal-88-fat
Congratulations on your 150th article!!! 😊
Thanks!
Happy Ex-150th!
Arguing against CICO is so frustrating for so many reasons people are so snarky about it and love to interrupt you and treat you like you are stupid it actually is a very technically difficult thing to argue against. It's like the healthcare equivalent of believing the sun revolves around the earth. It's such a graceful seeming belief and it works for enough people some of the time, it's a zombie belief which actually has a ton of holes but people keep believing in it because disproving it properly requires damn near perfection alongside an audience which has to be versed in thermodynamic technical language. Thermodynamics is one of the hardest things to actually talk about and most people who reference the law are not using it correctly. I have been working on an anti-CICO paper for so long trying to explain the basis of why it is not a good model of the human body. It's hard but I feel like once one of us cracks it properly from first principles it's gonna be a game changer.
Yea the main issue is that the people who are left believing in naive CICO are, by definition, not very smart. All the smart people have moved on to "it's complicated."
Zero of the CICO people who ever brought up the First Law of Thermodynamics to me have ever been able to cite the First Law of Thermodynamics. If you're lucky they copy & paste something, but usually they just get angry and call you names.
K2 MK-4 resolves calcification of the adipocyte membrane.
This results in brutally malfunctioning fat burn/store signaling.
Most industrialized animal foods are now virtually devoid of K2 MK-4.
Get it in high dose supplement form.
You will reach a new plateau.
I can almost guarantee it.
Don't all the vitamin D supplements come with K2? Never seemed to do anything for me.
- Oral vitamin D should never have been put with K2.
- The dose and form of k2 matters.
- Many people feel worse with K2 MK-7 because it is a large molecule that slows PGP detox.
- You've never tried K2 MK4 in HIGH DOSE or without vitamin D
- I would start at a medium dose of 5 to 10 mg MK-4 with breakfast in the morning.
- Then work your way up...
- Vitamin D from the sun utilizes your cholesterol and is the optimal way to raise your active D because it runs on the sulfation backbone.
- I am not claiming oral vitamin D is rat poison i am just saying its non-optimal
Japanese studies go as high a 45mg or 45 000 mcg for K2 MK-4... in our industrial world and long term deficiencies it takes minimum of 10mg or 10 000 mcg to start making a noticeable difference and at least a few weeks of it for most..
I've been doing it for 6 months and have excellent results.
Most supplements have less than a few hundred micro grams, will hardly make a difference.
Search on amazon or wherever for high dose k2 mk4, you will find it in 20mg or 45mg doses...
I have so many hypothesis people like collected heh. I would probably not get to this one within the next year :( And seeing some pretty great results and have in the past without supplementing K2 at all.
Why do you need to do one thing at a time to prove to people what causes fat loss?
Just stack it with what you are doing right now.
What are the other theories you have to try? Do they understand how the adipocytes signal release and storage of fat?... We do have differences in how we adjust to different macros.
I don't think it's good for experimental purposes to compromise your vessel with K2 MK-4 defficiency.
Given you also avoid plants I can guarantee you have a K2-mk4 defficiency cause you'd hardly be converting.. There is nothing to convert.
If I do 10 things at a time, I don't know which one or which combination did it.
I am of course already stacking to a degree, but there's sort of a limit of how much you can stack.
A lot of things can also have a negative effect, so stacking more wouldn't just be useless/confound it, it might actually prevent something else from working.
E.g. many vitamins are also known to have negative effects in certain ways. C, E, A, D, in some ways, and the B vitamins are suspected to be obesogenic as well. I don't know if I've heard anything bad about K, but what are the odds there's no possible downside..
> Do they understand how the adipocytes signal release and storage of fat?
Yes. E.g. PUFA theory, vinegar, ..
I certainly don't have any of the official vitamin K deficiency symtoms like bruising easily. In fact, I bruise extremely little and heal like a MFer. I recently got some 2x6s dropped onto my shins and while it drew a lot of blood, it didn't bruise at all even on the shins and healed up super quick.
Bad bruising or poor wound healing is EXTREME level K2 defficiency.
In this case a defficiency of K2-mk4 is itself a confounder.
You enjoy a high calcium diet while getting very little K or K2 and if you were eating grass fed you would be getting an over abundance of iron if eating meat and this would also confound.
You are are running the experiment of how long you can do a K2 defficient diet.
It would actually be one less experiment.
Weston A Price would certainly agree and its not a positive experiment.
Sorry if I've missed this, but what do you think about you yourself taking GLP-1 agonists? Have you tried them or are you opposed? They are working for me re: satiety.
I'm pretty opposed. For one, the effects in studies are pretty underwhelming. Even vinegar beats them by a mile in terms of weight loss, without any of the side effects. My own diet also had much better success than even the best responders to Tirzepatide.
And the side effect profile is pretty bad, I think.
On top, it wouldn't help me achieve my goal. My goal isn't to be thin, it's to solve the obesity epidemic. If we just use a drug, we won't ever figure out what caused it.
I wrote about it here:
https://www.exfatloss.com/p/the-totally-speculative-reason-i?utm_source=publication-search
Thanks for the link. You might be interested in newer systematic reviews that found that tirzepatide is muscle sparing. I do regular DEXAs (am overdue for one, actually) and so far so good re: body composition. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12394919/
(The short version is: "The available evidence suggests that treatment is associated with reductions in fat mass while maintaining the relative preservation of lean mass. Indicators of muscle composition remained stable or showed signs of improvement.")
I'd be curious to hear about it if you ever decide to experiment with them. I take a lower dose than typically prescribed to avoid the gastrointestinal side effects and am having pretty good results. (Better than anything else I've ever tried for sure.) For what it's worth, I also don't believe in CICO, I agree with you that it's at least partially a partitioning issue related to hormone disruption by cumulative environmental factors.
Tirzepitide also leads to increased fat oxidation, which to me supports the partitioning hypothesis, although does not unfortunately offer any help identifying the cause of obesity.
Heh I'm unlikely to try it, but glad it works for you. At this point I'm mostly in it out of curiosity, not to personally get leaner.
Wow, so well and succinctly explained -lemme see if I got this right...
- You're right and everyone else is wrong. Nay, stupid.
- The human body has nothing to do with Thermodynamics.
- It didn't work for you so obviously it won't work for anybody else (because you're so methodical and meticulous about experimental parameters, right?)
Sheesh
Pretty much, you got it :)
Never knew about the Mark Twain reference. That’s definitely going into my paper! Thanks.
Haha I told Tucker and then he linked to a tweet of his from 3 years ago about it..
Great article, and I agree with absolutely everything, except maybe fasting. As far as I understand, feeling very very hungry is normal for the first several days, but then your ghrelin levels decline and the hunger goes away. For some people it can take up to a week or more. You said that if a person is feeling starving after a few days, they should probably stop. But just because you're very hungry doesn't mean you are losing muscle or that you've entered “starvation mode” or whatever. I'd be interested to hear your opinion on fasting centers like True North, where apparently people routinely fast for several weeks.
I personally only have limited experience with fasting, not being able to get over that hump of feeling bad and very hungry. But people like Alan Goldhammer (of True North) emphasize the need to actually rest while fasting. It's no wonder many people never get past the first few days, as most of us can't take time away from life at a fasting center or laying around in bed. I have little kids to take care of, which makes it difficult. Most people have jobs to go to. So this could be a point against fasting, just in that it isn't practical for most people. But that doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for those who are able to actually rest and potentially fast for a longer period.
Sorry for the long reply!
No worry, I like long replies!
> As far as I understand, feeling very very hungry is normal for the first several days, but then your ghrelin levels decline and the hunger goes away.
That's what they say, and it doesn't seem to be true :) Like I describe in the post. I know many people who've tried fasting and it didn't happen for any of them.
> apparently people routinely fast for several weeks.
I don't know that particular place, but every time I look into these they define "fasting" as eating 800kcal/day or something. I've done 7 days w/ a small amount of creamy coffee and on 800 I might be able to do longer, who knows. But it's rarely real fasting as in zero intake.
Of course it could be that these people are right and both of us would eventually make it over the "hump" if we were relaxed enough and forced ourselves through. But I think the better explanation is that it doesn't work, at least not in us (or anyone I know).
At True North, I know they do actual water only fasting. I do hope to experiment more with longer fasts myself at some point (as my kids get older and hopefully life slows down a bit 😅) so I'll have to report back then 😁. I've never suffered from obesity, however, I'm just overweight from having kids and am trying to lose that weight. So I'm not sure my experience would translate to those who are obese, even if it works. I've enjoyed reading Herbert Shelton on the topic of fasting, but he was pre-obesity epidemic so again, not sure his observations would translate to modern day. But still, a fascinating topic!