This was great. Agree with most of this. The one thing I can’t figure out is how much PUFA is too much. While avoiding them seems to have been relatively easy for you, if you can’t cook all your meals it is pretty tough. Lots of reasons why someone might not be able to do that. I’ve been in a season of my life where I’ve been able to, but I struggle thinking about how someone could implement a version of this that isn’t quite as strict as everyone on Reddit. Which I think is key to making this go mainstream, which itself will be necessary to getting restaurants etc. to switch.
“What have I got to lose?” Yep. The anti-seed oil people have messed with my life for sure. Eating out sucks. And maybe I miss KFC. But my payout is relative immunity from sunburn(used to burn in 20 minutes), much reduced joint aches, correction of mild but accelerating weight issues, and now 10 years later the realization I can eat carbs mostly at will. It has totally been worth it. If you could prove to me it wasn’t seed oils, I still wouldn’t eat them. Why would I eat a modern product produced in a factory with hydraulic presses, solvents, and bleaches and deodorizers? They smell and taste bad as too. Just can’t beat butter!
Glad your life is looking up, Ex. Hope it continues!
What i'm expecting to see in my lifetime is first a better explanation of why PUFAs are deleterious, and only later an explanation for why olive oil historically was fine despite being 3x higher PUFA than, say, butter.
Another interesting Mediterranean question is how ancient aristocrats got fat at all in the first place. John Chrysostom, if I remember correctly, tried to explain this with the idea that the adipose tissue of fattened animals was indigestible, and therefore collected in the bodies of those who ate them. It's possible that eating fattened animals (especially pigs) only accidentally correlates with human obesity -- the Greeks highly prized walnuts, which are high in PUFAs. However, the standard fattening feed for pigs at the time was acorns, which are moderately high in PUFAs, and a 2021 study from Poland praises feeding acorns to pigs as a way of making them fatter, especially increasing MUFA and PUFA concentrations in their body fat. Walnuts and acorn-lard together might have been the culprit.
Like I said before ketones are magical. You have done measurements showing that this diet has more ketones then your old keto diet. That should be a hypothesis you mention.
Do we know what the Amish eat? I suspect Amish obesity rates are lower than non-Amish. This could be another data point in favor of the seed oil theory if it is true that the Amish mostly eat food they themselves produce.
Do you have thoughts about microbiomic changes from traditional diets? I have seen lots of data suggesting that gut microbe populations may play a big role in obesity and depression, and that, like PUFAs, our microbiomes are very different from what they were ancestrally. But it seems like there are a lot of unknowns there as well, and that mouse models only go so far comparing with human digestion. I'm wondering if microbes are on your radar at all?
Has anyone ever tested PUFAs on mice? I'd be surprised if not.
It seems like a lab could get genetically identical mice, divide them in half, feed one group "the chow that fattens" (assuming this including seed oils) and the other group "an exact replica of the chow that fattens except without seed oils" and see if outcomes differ over the mice's life cycles. Hold fixed the mice's physical activity levels (or observe if one group naturally has more energy than the other, etc.).
Wouldn't this be strong evidence in favor of seed oils driving negative metabolic health outcomes?
It looks like some work has been done here, but the published papers don't exactly seem to be asking the right questions. From a cursory search on Elicit.com:
"Several studies have investigated the effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) on metabolic health in mice. Lee (2014) found that short-term dietary supplementation with botanical oil (BO) and fish oil (FO) improved biomarkers associated with type-2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome. However, Miranda (2013) reported that dietary supplementation of pomegranate seed oil, which contains PUFAs, did not lead to decreased fat accumulation or improved glycemic control in rats fed an obesogenic diet. Nuernberg (2011) observed that a high-fat diet rich in n-3 PUFAs led to increased body fat in mice selected for high body weight, but enhanced insulin sensitivity in mice selected for high treadmill performance. These findings suggest that the effects of PUFAs on metabolic health may be influenced by factors such as the specific type of PUFA and the genetic background of the mice."
When reading food labels I sometimes fantasize about people writing letters to food manufacturers: "You know what really would make this great? Canola oil!". In my country that shit is literally everything, though only minuscule amounts. I don't get it, why put it in at all?
This is excellent thank you. The extra details about pufa that have really impacted me are:
1. Just how bad pork can be in this context.
2. What fire in a bottle explains about the scd1 positive feedback loop. Ie when you’re mostly pufa, you’ll even turn your highly saturated fat diet into mufa. This feels like such a cruel twist, and a big part of the problem.
“It’s important to note that the hexane used in [seed oil production] processes is typically a special grade with high purity, suitable for food production. The oil industry is subject to strict regulations regarding hexane residue in the final product, ensuring that any remaining traces are below harmful levels. The use of hexane in food production, including seed oil extraction, has been reviewed and deemed safe by regulatory agencies like the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), provided the residues are within the permitted limits.”
I feel so much better! 😒 Especially regarding the part about “any remaining traces being below harmful levels”
This was great. Agree with most of this. The one thing I can’t figure out is how much PUFA is too much. While avoiding them seems to have been relatively easy for you, if you can’t cook all your meals it is pretty tough. Lots of reasons why someone might not be able to do that. I’ve been in a season of my life where I’ve been able to, but I struggle thinking about how someone could implement a version of this that isn’t quite as strict as everyone on Reddit. Which I think is key to making this go mainstream, which itself will be necessary to getting restaurants etc. to switch.
“What have I got to lose?” Yep. The anti-seed oil people have messed with my life for sure. Eating out sucks. And maybe I miss KFC. But my payout is relative immunity from sunburn(used to burn in 20 minutes), much reduced joint aches, correction of mild but accelerating weight issues, and now 10 years later the realization I can eat carbs mostly at will. It has totally been worth it. If you could prove to me it wasn’t seed oils, I still wouldn’t eat them. Why would I eat a modern product produced in a factory with hydraulic presses, solvents, and bleaches and deodorizers? They smell and taste bad as too. Just can’t beat butter!
Glad your life is looking up, Ex. Hope it continues!
What i'm expecting to see in my lifetime is first a better explanation of why PUFAs are deleterious, and only later an explanation for why olive oil historically was fine despite being 3x higher PUFA than, say, butter.
Another interesting Mediterranean question is how ancient aristocrats got fat at all in the first place. John Chrysostom, if I remember correctly, tried to explain this with the idea that the adipose tissue of fattened animals was indigestible, and therefore collected in the bodies of those who ate them. It's possible that eating fattened animals (especially pigs) only accidentally correlates with human obesity -- the Greeks highly prized walnuts, which are high in PUFAs. However, the standard fattening feed for pigs at the time was acorns, which are moderately high in PUFAs, and a 2021 study from Poland praises feeding acorns to pigs as a way of making them fatter, especially increasing MUFA and PUFA concentrations in their body fat. Walnuts and acorn-lard together might have been the culprit.
Like I said before ketones are magical. You have done measurements showing that this diet has more ketones then your old keto diet. That should be a hypothesis you mention.
Do we know what the Amish eat? I suspect Amish obesity rates are lower than non-Amish. This could be another data point in favor of the seed oil theory if it is true that the Amish mostly eat food they themselves produce.
This study has a nice overview of various Amish health studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8857275/
(Apparently in one community in Ontario the obesity rate was 4%.)
I wonder if lower levels of autism among Amish can also be explained by lower seed oil consumption. (See this “mystery” essay published by SMTM last year: https://slimemoldtimemold.com/2023/07/17/your-mystery-why-is-autism-rare-among-the-amish/
Do you have thoughts about microbiomic changes from traditional diets? I have seen lots of data suggesting that gut microbe populations may play a big role in obesity and depression, and that, like PUFAs, our microbiomes are very different from what they were ancestrally. But it seems like there are a lot of unknowns there as well, and that mouse models only go so far comparing with human digestion. I'm wondering if microbes are on your radar at all?
Has anyone ever tested PUFAs on mice? I'd be surprised if not.
It seems like a lab could get genetically identical mice, divide them in half, feed one group "the chow that fattens" (assuming this including seed oils) and the other group "an exact replica of the chow that fattens except without seed oils" and see if outcomes differ over the mice's life cycles. Hold fixed the mice's physical activity levels (or observe if one group naturally has more energy than the other, etc.).
Wouldn't this be strong evidence in favor of seed oils driving negative metabolic health outcomes?
It looks like some work has been done here, but the published papers don't exactly seem to be asking the right questions. From a cursory search on Elicit.com:
"Several studies have investigated the effects of polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs) on metabolic health in mice. Lee (2014) found that short-term dietary supplementation with botanical oil (BO) and fish oil (FO) improved biomarkers associated with type-2 diabetes/metabolic syndrome. However, Miranda (2013) reported that dietary supplementation of pomegranate seed oil, which contains PUFAs, did not lead to decreased fat accumulation or improved glycemic control in rats fed an obesogenic diet. Nuernberg (2011) observed that a high-fat diet rich in n-3 PUFAs led to increased body fat in mice selected for high body weight, but enhanced insulin sensitivity in mice selected for high treadmill performance. These findings suggest that the effects of PUFAs on metabolic health may be influenced by factors such as the specific type of PUFA and the genetic background of the mice."
Lee et al. (2014) - https://doi.org/10.1186/1476-511X-13-196
Miranda et al. (2013) - https://doi.org/10.1021/jf305076v
Nuernber et al. (2011) - https://doi.org/10.1186/1743-7075-8-56
In case anyone else is wonder how canola oil is made: https://youtu.be/Cfk2IXlZdbI?si=Wkz1JcpujaYFaPt9
When reading food labels I sometimes fantasize about people writing letters to food manufacturers: "You know what really would make this great? Canola oil!". In my country that shit is literally everything, though only minuscule amounts. I don't get it, why put it in at all?
This is excellent thank you. The extra details about pufa that have really impacted me are:
1. Just how bad pork can be in this context.
2. What fire in a bottle explains about the scd1 positive feedback loop. Ie when you’re mostly pufa, you’ll even turn your highly saturated fat diet into mufa. This feels like such a cruel twist, and a big part of the problem.
GPT-4 helpfully reminds me:
“It’s important to note that the hexane used in [seed oil production] processes is typically a special grade with high purity, suitable for food production. The oil industry is subject to strict regulations regarding hexane residue in the final product, ensuring that any remaining traces are below harmful levels. The use of hexane in food production, including seed oil extraction, has been reviewed and deemed safe by regulatory agencies like the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA), provided the residues are within the permitted limits.”
I feel so much better! 😒 Especially regarding the part about “any remaining traces being below harmful levels”